Atari and early-cart system clean up

[Psychofox11]

I'd like to over time get some of the older systems cleaned up a bit in a DOM, but I need some consensus from higher ups to make sure I'm not doing things twice. I'll bring up a few issues and thoughts of what to do

- First according to the Wiki, we should default to the English box title (unless another makes more sense), and not use alternate titles. That is, a game should have one title. Several games for early systems were released under multiple titles, even in the US, and it isn't always clear which came first, or if they just alternated. There'd also be the Atari name vs what Sears put on their licensed version etc. However, if someone has a US cart and types in the title on the DOM, they may not know its other names, and I think the search results should appear. If you view Atari 2600 and search for the ~ character you'll see there's quite a few like " Hangman ~ Spelling (USA)". Any thoughts here? I like having the known titles searchable on the DOM, but it does go against the wiki rule of one title.

- Second - how the heck are we timing aftermarket on Atari 2600 now? In 2023 they released both a new console that plays old 2600 games, and new 2600 games/controllers that work on both the old and new consoles. Are new releases aftermarket if they come from Atari? What about homebrews? The system and games are 'still' or 'once again' in production - it seems wrong to me to label a new release from Atari as aftermarket, but also seems weird to edit existing homebrew etc. to remove that tag (there isn't many, just the principle as they did qualify at time of release). Also, I'm not sure if Atari is doing licensing now, but if so we'd have to think about using the (unl) tag there. They are at least using ESRB ratings which is odd to see on 2600 game boxes! Whatever we decide here, I think the aftermarket Wiki should be updated to note how Atari should be handled as it is an interesting situation and not obviousl

As the new console also plays 7800 games, we could see something similar there, but so far they haven't released any new 7800 stuff for it.

I might have other questions but wanted some thoughts here, and any other ideas as far as clean up that needs to happen on the old systems. It is something I'd slowly update overtime, as I get burned out on the tedious stuff like that pretty quickly, but if I update a few a week it should be good soon.

If I just wanted to edit one or two I'd just use my best judgement, but I don't wanna find out after updating 500 that it is 'wrong' lol.

[smesgr]

well it depends what you consider to be "Atari".

Atari.png

The real Atari Inc ended existing in 1992 and was merged into Warner. (Right on the picture)
Both Atari Games and Atari Corp were sold by Warner and have different names Atari Corp was Tramel Technology Ltd. and Atari Games was AT Games Inc. before renamed after buy out.
Both combines obtained the right on selling and using the brand name in the business sector. The Atari 2600 production was stopped in 1991 was discontinued in 1992. Thus is valid to argue that the current Atari Inc (previously Atari Interactive Inc the US department of Atari SA aka Infogrames) is just a more professional after market.

I don't prefer either way. I don't get this strict homebrew, unlicensed, licensed categorising. It seems to me this was done to provide collectors the badge for "I own every game of this-that-device."-throphy.

[Psychofox11]

well it depends what you consider to be "Atari".

Atari.png

The real Atari Inc ended existing in 1992 and was merged into Warner. (Right on the picture)
Both Atari Games and Atari Corp were sold by Warner and have different names Atari Corp was Tramel Technology Ltd. and Atari Games was AT Games Inc. before renamed after buy out.
Both combines obtained the right on selling and using the brand name in the business sector. The Atari 2600 production was stopped in 1991 was discontinued in 1992. Thus is valid to argue that the current Atari Inc (previously Atari Interactive Inc the US department of Atari SA aka Infogrames) is just a more professional after market.

I don't prefer either way. I don't get this strict homebrew, unlicensed, licensed categorising. It seems to me this was done to provide collectors the badge for "I own every game of this-that-device."-throphy.

This is why I'm asking, it's complex. What if Atari just changed hands but never discontinued the console? Is the current owner of the brand what we're considering, or the brand itself?

Also, the Homebrew tag is no longer used. I think it is important to note aftermarkets/unlicensed both for preservation of those facts, and seperating the original retail from other things. Typically it would be the aftermarket tag, which in turn needs to be coupled with either (unl) or (pirate) - you can't use the tag without one of those, but it is almost like we're talking about licensed aftermarket. It is a tricky situation, and that's why I want the higher ups to weigh in before I do a lot of editing. I want to be sure it is according to how they want it to be.

In fact, Intellivision changed ownership and who was making the console during its pre-aftermarket years, though there was no gap - and we still consider its full timeline until discontinuation. With the Atari 2600, it was already discontinued once, then re-launched in the 80s to compete with nes as the 2600 jr, and we consider the games from that period part of its original retail run. It was the original company at that point though.

And lets not forget all the Sega stuff that wasn't made by Sega in brazil, but was official and part of what we dat as original run stuff - or other people making Nintendo consoles due to laws in other countries. I don't think manufacturer or ownership is the definitive decider here.

I don't think we've seen a system fully relaunched like this since No-Intro has been around, and I think if we were around in the 80s, similar questions would have come up with the jr. being released (though it was a few years rather than decades).

I might have some input but am not dead set on it being one way or another - but we need to decide so I can clean up these old systems!

[rarenight]

https://atari.com/products/atari-2600-plus

My personal opinion on the matter is that since the modern licensor of Atari is going a step further than plug-and-plays and is officially reviving the old ecosystems with original cart support like this, I'd rather err on the side of minimalism and scrub out all "(Aftermarket) (Unl)" tags from the Atari 2600 and Atari 7800 sets. That way this messy situation (which includes new Atari-Age releases, now owned by Atari) no longer needs to be under contention and we as datters no longer make that determination when adding games. I can edit the Wiki page to remove any mention of the Atari 2600 and Atari 7800 as well.

The (Aftermarket) (Unl) tags are intended to be a general barometer to help us delineate between licensed and unlicensed ecosystems. Game Boy is a great example; there is a definitive "licensed Nintendo original" vs. "licensed Nintendo re-release" vs. "unlicensed original" vs. "unlicensed Itch.io homebrew" divide. But in a unique situation like this, that line becomes sufficiently blurred to where those tags don't really serve any further utility to the end-user. This is also why we stripped out the (Homebrew) tag unilaterally...vague delineations are functionally useless.

[Psychofox11]

https://atari.com/products/atari-2600-plus

My personal opinion on the matter is that since the modern licensor of Atari is going a step further than plug-and-plays and is officially reviving the old ecosystems with original cart support like this, I'd rather err on the side of minimalism and scrub out all "(Aftermarket) (Unl)" tags from the Atari 2600 and Atari 7800 sets. That way this messy situation (which includes new Atari-Age releases, now owned by Atari) no longer needs to be under contention and we as datters no longer make that determination when adding games. I can edit the Wiki page to remove any mention of the Atari 2600 and Atari 7800 as well.

The (Aftermarket) (Unl) tags are intended to be a general barometer to help us delineate between licensed and unlicensed ecosystems. Game Boy is a great example; there is a definitive "licensed Nintendo original" vs. "licensed Nintendo re-release" vs. "unlicensed original" vs. "unlicensed Itch.io homebrew" divide. But in a unique situation like this, that line becomes sufficiently blurred to where those tags don't really serve any further utility to the end-user. This is also why we stripped out the (Homebrew) tag unilaterally...vague delineations are functionally useless.

I don't think there is any (unl) in Atari currently, as I'm not aware of them ever having a licensing program. That said, it leaves a couple of questions:
- If we do consider real Atari vs other publishers, I asked Albert, who runs AtariAge during the acquisition. AtariAge distributing a homebrew doesn't necessarily mean it is licensed by Atari. Think of a store in the 80s selling Tengen NES games, and then Nintendo buys that chain of stores and doesn't change the inventory. They don't license Tengen games, but their store still sells them and buys them from Tengen. That's the situation we have here.

- So far they haven't announced anything for 7800 that I'm aware of (even controllers with 2 buttons for the new console if I'm not mistaken). The 2600+ does play them (just as the original 7800 played 2600), but 2600 is definitely far more popular culturally - should we wait and see if they do any new 7800 stuff before attacking that set?

I might think of other oddities in this situation as it goes. Also would like some input on the carts with multiple names. i like how they are now, but the wiki says one name per entry. Early systems sure released a lot of games under different names that people could search for though.

Thanks for the input, keep it coming!

[smesgr]

Atari has a licensing of course. But I think your question was, does a publisher needs a licensing from Atari to publish a 2600 game. No, they went to court with Activision in ~'81 but settled out of court. This was afaik the reason for Nintendo to come up with there security chip in the NES.

[Psychofox11]

Atari has a licensing of course. But I think your question was, does a publisher needs a licensing from Atari to publish a 2600 game. No, they went to court with Activision in ~'81 but settled out of court. This was afaik the reason for Nintendo to come up with there security chip in the NES.

When I asked about the (unl) part for Atari, before the 26000+ was out, i was told that pre-NES systems didn't use the tag because they didn't have a licensing program. Atari didn't license other people to make games so much as they bought the rights to publish those games from them themselves. it was either an Atari release or a non-Atari release, but there weren't any licensed by Atari without also them being the publisher. I'm not sure if that's any different in their new ecosystem. That's just how it was explained to me here when I originally asked about the (unl) tag on old systems.

[herocopter]

Opinion from an Atari fan.


Albert decided to wipe the site of anything that even looks like an unofficial knock-off of a licensed game - and many things had to go. They did get hit 1-time by Ninty for a takedown I think.

AtariAge carts are usually homebrew authors (fans) who did not get official permission to "hack" the original games, or similar. ARTI 7800 was considered different enough from HERO to stay on the store.

I would label _many_ of the recent 2600 - 5200 - 7800 titles as Aftermarket / Unlicensed.
- Depending on the game (PentaGo 7800, Popeye 7800, Beef Drop 7800, Froggie 7800, Donkey Kong PK-XM 7800, Lady Bug / Arcade 2600, Dare Devil 2600..) as Pirate (too similar = knock-off).

- Bentley Bear's Crystal Quest 7800 is unlicensed - author is considering changing all the graphics to avoid legal problems. Danger Zone 7800 feels like Top Gun, especially the title music.

- Berzerk Enhanced / Mr Run and Jump are *published* by Atari. I'd avoid Aftermarket because that label feels more for Homebrews than official products.

- Songbird got hit by Atari I think and rebranded everything to AL16 (Lynx).


It could help if you start a list and we can all pre-argue what the labels should be for each title. Maybe someone will think up something better or more appropriate from the way the discussion flows.



EDIT:
Thinking more. If it got Atari's official stamped blessing, it's not aftermarket to me.

But I'd have to check the current labeling for more official titles - Star Fox 2, Trials of Mana, Sega's releases, etc. There's lots of collections, remakes, re-licensed, and other confusing things I don't track carefully.



EDIT2:
Other modern consoles

Megadrive
- Devi to Pii (Japan) (Mega Drive Mini 2)
- Star Mobile (Japan) (Mega Drive Mini 2)
- VS Puyo Puyo Sun (Japan) (Mega Drive Mini 2)

Game Gear
- GG Aleste 3 (Japan) (En) (Aleste Collection)

NES
- Donkey Kong - Original Edition (USA, Europe) (3DS Virtual Console)

SNES
- Star Fox 2 (Japan) (Classic Mini, Switch Online)
- Trials of Mana (World) (Rev 1) (Collection of Mana)


EDIT-x:
Under @rarenight's new dat proposal, I guess Berzerk Enhanced would go under original dat (P/C) and Mr. Run and Jump would be Aftermarket.

[Psychofox11]

EDIT-x:
Under @rarenight's new dat proposal, I guess Berzerk Enhanced would go under original dat (P/C) and Mr. Run and Jump would be Aftermarket.

Is Berzerk Enhanced not a new title as much as a sequel or something would be? Especially sequels of this era. It does get muddy!

Also, I haven't always been able to tell what has permission and what doesn't when it comes to re-releases from Atariage, some Coleco distributors, etc. My Gradius for Coleco has the Konami logo on it and a big fancy box, but is that done with permission or not?

I wasn't aware of stuff being taken off AtariAge, sounded at first like that stuff wasn't gonna change much but I also didn't see how they could keep offering things like 'send any ROM and we'll put it on a cart and mark it as a repro' - not sure if they still offer that, but I figured there were more changes than they mentioned up front. They did say they'd keep selling flash carts at least.

[herocopter]

Is Berzerk Enhanced not a new title as much as a sequel or something would be? Especially sequels of this era. It does get muddy!

Berzerk Enhanced is like a Redux hack of the original Berzerk 2600. Adds some fancy new things to the original game to make it more Arcade, like an expansion pack. So P/C link under the original dat.

@rarenight explained me to that Crystal Mines II (Lynx) + Crystal Mines II: Buried Treasure (Lynx) would have a direct P/C for the same reason. Or say Raid on TriCity (beta) + Raid on TriCity: First Impact + Raid on TriCity: Second Wave - they're basically the same "core" game but v0, v1, v2.

---

Also, I haven't always been able to tell what has permission and what doesn't when it comes to re-releases from Atariage, some Coleco distributors, etc. My Gradius for Coleco has the Konami logo on it and a big fancy box, but is that done with permission or not?

Very good question. I don't know anything about the Coleco indies but I've seen some of the devs stamp "official" Nintendo logos trademarks on their games to look like the original (Popeye 7800, Donkey Kong PK-XM 7800) but they definitely did not get a license or permission. It's said the same with many Intellivision games, and likely other systems.

There's this huge thread about Coleco going after everyone
https://forums.atariage.com/topic/26573 ... fan-sites/

But I believe Opcode Electronics is officially licensed (but recently?)
https://forums.atariage.com/topic/35393 ... ecovision/

As for Gradius .. I want to say depends on the maker. If OpcodeGames, likely not.
https://forums.atariage.com/topic/29518 ... lecovision
https://cvaddict.com/profile.php?gameid=336

I don't know how many AA indies are big company licensed. I'm doubtful with the majority of AA releases.

------

I wasn't aware of stuff being taken off AtariAge, sounded at first like that stuff wasn't gonna change much but I also didn't see how they could keep offering things like 'send any ROM and we'll put it on a cart and mark it as a repro' - not sure if they still offer that, but I figured there were more changes than they mentioned up front. They did say they'd keep selling flash carts at least.

The big one kicked off in July 2023.
https://forums.atariage.com/topic/35247 ... ance-sale/
https://www.reddit.com/r/atari/comments ... iginal_ip/

I'd say Albert has cleaned up the store of most knock-offs and romhacks now, so I think that policy has shifted. *Many* things are erased.
https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l= ... _list&c=39


EDIT:

It was just announced by Albert Yarusso of AtariAge that: “I am going to be focused on publishing original games and those for which licensing can be procured.”

Officially licensed games:
- Boulder Dash 2600 - https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l= ... ail&p=1271

- Boulder Dash 5200 - https://firststarsoftware.com/boulderdash-htm/

- Defender of the Crown Jaguar - https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l= ... ail&p=1146
- Fantasy World Dizzy Jaguar - https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l= ... ail&p=1195
- Gods Jaguar - https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l= ... ail&p=1267
- Robinson's Requiem Jaguar - https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l= ... ail&p=1112
- Rocket Ranger Jaguar - https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l= ... ail&p=1314
- Speedball 2: Brutal Deluxe Jaguar - https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l= ... ail&p=1196
- The Chaos Engine Jaguar - https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l= ... ail&p=1268
- Treasure Island Dizzy Jaguar - https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l= ... ail&p=1145
- Xenon 2: Megablast Jaguar - https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l= ... ail&p=1087


I guess anything "Atari"-derived is allowed to stay, but unlicensed? Not sure here
- Adventure II 5200 - https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l= ... tail&p=334
- Tempest 5200 - https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l= ... ail&p=1036

- Asteroids Deluxe 7800 - https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l= ... tail&p=875
- Super Circus 7800 - https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l= ... ail&p=1199

[Psychofox11]

I'm not gonna quote to keep my post from getting too long on top of that haha.

I was thinking of Berzerk Enhanced as being more like a sequel as it is 4x bigger, meaning more new data than old. Also, I think it can be dangerous linking some of the really early system carts as P/C based on sharing a core or whatever, as many games re-used things and even retail games were essentially hacks of other games at times. Useful info to have, but a lot of work to keep straight and verify.

A lot of early sequels were just like 'same game but now the bad guys move faster' or other such minimal changes. Heck, Ms. Pac-Man is a hack of Pac-Man at its core, for the arcade version, but I wouldn't consider it P/C. I'm not saying any of this is incorrect, it just needs to be well documented if we do it so people know why seemingly unrelated games are connected and don't undo it. Also the connection is kinda useless if the info isn't provided.

For Opcode, it looks like they got some license from owners of game properties to make those games, but I'm also realizing we're talking about a difference here. (unl) typically means not licensed by the console maker - not having anything to do with the software owner. I don't think anyone working with real Coleco fans uses the ColecoVision name anymore due to their past, I'm not a fan! The Super Game Module was licensed by Coleco for one run (like the 3rd run maybe), just before all that went down, and they broke their partnership and stopped using the ColecoVision name on it. Since Opcode is very involved with that project, I don't see them seeking official Coleco license. But then what we are talking about is the (pirate) tag as well, which would come down to things like the Opcode deal. Sometimes it is really hard to tell and there isn't much info out there.

I have almost all the games that have been listed and a LOT more aftermarkets for Coleco/7800 I'd love to get added properly eventually. Also don't know where a lot of them are as I haven't unpacked my game room fully since moving, so I need to dig those up! I can always at least dat as we have been and adjust once we reach a consensus.

I'm also hesitant to call Mr. Run and Jump aftermarket - not based on the reason Rarenight brought up, but more as I'm not sure if we consider this 'aftermarket' times for Atari, which is part of the question. I would go with 'released by Atari while they also are selling a console that will play it' doesn't seem aftermarket to me, but that's what we're here to talk about and I appreciate everyone's input! No one is wrong, just a lot of angles to look at things from.

[herocopter]

A lot of early sequels were just like 'same game but now the bad guys move faster' or other such minimal changes. Heck, Ms. Pac-Man is a hack of Pac-Man at its core, for the arcade version, but I wouldn't consider it P/C. I'm not saying any of this is incorrect, it just needs to be well documented if we do it so people know why seemingly unrelated games are connected and don't undo it. Also the connection is kinda useless if the info isn't provided.

Ms. Pac-Man is not P/C (imo) because it's officially labeled by Namco as a sequel. Same with Asteroids vs Asteroids Deluxe - Atari marketed as a sequel, so no argument in my mind.


EDIT: Songbird labeled CM2:BT as an expansion pack to CM2, so not a sequel. Same with Raid on TriCity - not labeled as sequels but upgraded re-releases (by the same author, within a short timespan).

--------------

I was thinking of Berzerk Enhanced as being more like a sequel as it is 4x bigger, meaning more new data than old. Also, I think it can be dangerous linking some of the really early system carts as P/C based on sharing a core or whatever, as many games re-used things and even retail games were essentially hacks of other games at times. Useful info to have, but a lot of work to keep straight and verify.

Berzerk Voice Enhanced is 16K, which only adds voices.
https://atariage.com/store/index.php?l= ... etail&p=29

What did Atari do for 32K .. don't know.

https://gameo.com/en/atari-2600-berzerk ... ndard.html
The 1980’s hit that rocked the arcade world is back and upgraded to be more like the original.

Berzerk Enhanced is marketed as a port of the original arcade game.
Berzerk 2600 was sold as a home port of the arcade game too.
- That feels more like P/C to me from that strict description.

Frenzy is labeled as an official sequel, so definitely not.

--------------

For Opcode, it looks like they got some license from owners of game properties to make those games, but I'm also realizing we're talking about a difference here. (unl) typically means not licensed by the console maker - not having anything to do with the software owner. I don't think anyone working with real Coleco fans uses the ColecoVision name anymore due to their past, I'm not a fan! The Super Game Module was licensed by Coleco for one run (like the 3rd run maybe), just before all that went down, and they broke their partnership and stopped using the ColecoVision name on it. Since Opcode is very involved with that project, I don't see them seeking official Coleco license. But then what we are talking about is the (pirate) tag as well, which would come down to things like the Opcode deal. Sometimes it is really hard to tell and there isn't much info out there.

Oh~. Okay. That is an important difference between unl and pirate.

The AA users were like "Holy Crap! You got an official publisher deal!" (late 2023 reactions). Opcode was porting over DK, Lady Bug Arcade, Gradius, and lots of other things way before then.

Maybe some AA user will follow this thread and ask Opcode directly for us!! (*nudge *nudge *wink)

-----------

I have almost all the games that have been listed and a LOT more aftermarkets for Coleco/7800 I'd love to get added properly eventually. Also don't know where a lot of them are as I haven't unpacked my game room fully since moving, so I need to dig those up! I can always at least dat as we have been and adjust once we reach a consensus.

Very cool!

I'm also hesitant to call Mr. Run and Jump aftermarket - not based on the reason Rarenight brought up, but more as I'm not sure if we consider this 'aftermarket' times for Atari, which is part of the question. I would go with 'released by Atari while they also are selling a console that will play it' doesn't seem aftermarket to me, but that's what we're here to talk about and I appreciate everyone's input! No one is wrong, just a lot of angles to look at things from.

For me .... I'd call Mr. Run and Jump as "official" (not aftermarket in the uhm.. idk yet). Atari is getting back in the saddle and they have their own VCS store.

Atari renaissance would be the phrase, like Keanu Reeve's current acting career. They feel current and relevant; aftermarket feels more "unofficially made by fans".


EDIT: Even if Atari didn't make the 2600+ and just published Run and Jump as digital, I'd still give it the non-Aftermarket label because they were more directly involved. Same with Sega approving lots of M2 releases (Aleste 3, VS Puyo, Devi, Space Harrier 1/2 enhanced). Or Nintendo (Star Fox 2) and Square (Trials of Mana).

Michael Jackson's last run .. guess I would not call it aftermarket, because he directly produced and directed the wip material with *serious* intention. Bill and Ted 3 / Indiana Jones 5 are late runs but still official "canon". How many Halloween re-imaginings now? Infinity Jump Street joke.

Atari may be an elderly sage now but I can't call them Aftermarket. More like Karajan re-doing his Beethoven symphonies because he felt like he understood something that he didn't grasp when he was younger (1st = show off direct power, 2nd = probably wanted to top his 1st, 3rd = didn't want to force the music his way anymore but let it ride and shape itself).


EDIT2: Okay. Maybe none of the above were as important or "popular" later as their vintage prime heyday, but they still wanted to add some late chapters to their legacies.

Right. I must stop talking.

[herocopter]

After watching The Professor and the Madman (story of creation of Oxford dictionary), I've changed my mind about the P/C Berzerk link.

Berzerk 2023 probably does not share the same source code base as Berzerk 1982. Which makes it more of a sister sibling, than a dna-derived product.
https://english.stackexchange.com/quest ... one-called

- PC games have patches. So direct link established.
- ROMs have revisionals / regionals. Direct link proved.

Centipede (Songbird, Lynx) was hacked-upgraded from Centipede (Proto, Lynx) so P/C. Berzerk Voice Enhanced used Berzerk 1982 as the base for its hack upgrade, willing to tag as P/C here.

2023 has the same goals + target + intentions as 1982, but I can't prove anything more. Score = weak.

Donkey Kong (NES) vs Donkey Kong: Original Edition (NES) = similar problem. Same maker but tracing its code history is unclear to me without a teardown of both products. They're clearly strongly related in a sense which makes it confusing for me, which textbook definition is in-use at no-intro.

[snippybawlz]

Atari 5200 Boulderdash is licensed. Even listed on their website (search for 5200). https://firststarsoftware.com/boulderdash-htm/

[herocopter]

Neat! I see it now. Was focusing on AtariAge that's still currently for purchase but didn't think about other sites.