Poll: Should No-Intro split unlicensed ROMs into separate DATs from licensed ROMs?

[rarenight]

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[Fugus]

@RareNight

It isn't a purity test, its flat out a defining trait of that section. Not saying that they weren't real enough or they weren't gamey enough or any of that crap.

Flat out, was the game either made during that systems lifespan or later released by the companies that did? If so, Dat #1.
If the game wasn't made made during that systems lifespan and not by the major companies that did, it goes in Dat #2.

For No-Intro to be in the purity test thing, then it would have to start excluding actual games from being included at all even if they objectively fit the criteria of them being the game. The moment they start removing Captain Novalin from the SNES Databases because it was a crappy game THEN you can call it a purity test.

But to not remove a single game from the lists and instead sorting them by objectively definable trait is not a purity test it's just being organized.

To follow your line of logic, the stores and companies shouldn't be allowed to sort brown and white rice into 2 different types because that's setting a purity test on them and they should just be called rice.

And breaking the dats into smaller sections with cleanly defined types inside them would be the simplest solutions, leaving them as a convoluted mess that REQUIRES an extra program to sort them effectively would be needless complexity.

If you prefer the ReDump solution, that is your opinion, my opinion is that while their goal you admirable, their method of handling the dats is lazy and requires other apps to tailor them to what you need even if that is possible. The Dat-O-Matic is infinitely superior to what they have going on and the moment they include their own Dat-O-Matic or No-Intro started including a version of their stuff (even if only updated bi-monthly) it would be vastly superior and worth the wait time to check your collection.

Also, as far as ReDump goes, they are still behind the ball when it comes to the formats they are using when RVZ and CHD are both superior to ISO and Bin/Cue at this point as they are both lossless and able to decompress to those formats while also being able to be used while in those files. I can understand keeping dats for those formats would be much better if they included support for the superior formats as well. Their refusal to keep track of those formats would be similar to if No-Intro refused to keep track of Decrypted roms and only was willing to audit the encrypted ones.

[rarenight]

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[KingMike]

Cooly Skunk is an odd case, though.
It is a demo version that was released during the console lifespan.
We just never saw the full version released.
It was just fortune for the preservationists that the demo was a quickly created mod of what the full version would've been, and was able to be partially reverted with mods. (I know at least the code that quits out after a couple levels was restored, I can't remember if someone figured out how to restore the deactivated password feature.)

[Fugus]

@RareNight

Splitting based on the criteria I said IS logical and consistent.

Notice I said within the systems lifespan OR released by the companies on virtual console or their equivalents (IE Sega-Mini).

Having a prototype of a commercial game that was made within the games lifespan would still be included because it was supposed to be a commercial game released within the games lifespan. If Cool Skunky was a game made by the major developers during the consoles lifespan and never released, that should be within the first criteria.

And paid homebrew made within the consoles lifespan, you got any examples of that? Because most of those paid "Homebrew" that was made within a systems lifespan wasn't typically labeled as homebrew but unlicensed.

Sir, you aren't showing me anything making this whole process messy, you are splitting hairs trying to pretend there isn't a logical separation between the two groups when there is.

And when did I say delete Homebrew and Aftermarket games from the No-Intro collections entirely? I said give them their own dats that is meant specifically for them and their type.

-Was the game made during the consoles lifetime with the intent to be distributed on the console? If so, Dat #1. Otherwise....
-Was the game added retroactively by those developers on something similar to the virtual console or mini-consoles? If so, Dat #1. Otherwise...
-Was the game during the consoles lifetime by someone other than the developers without the intent to be distributed on the console? If so, Dat #2.
-Was the game made outside of the consoles lifespan by someone other than the developers on something other than their retro services? If so, Dat#2

How hard is that to keep separate?
How many homebrew games were officially released on the console or it's retro-equivalent? If they are, they aren't Homebrew.
How many aftermarket games were officially released during the consoles lifetime or it's retro-equivalent? If they are, they aren't aftermarket.

These are pretty solid and objective separations here. Now if you want to make the argument that you think fewer people would bother with the aftermarket and homebrew stuff if they aren't included with the rest then feel free to make it, but that's the only real reason to avoid the separation.

[rarenight]

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[sCZther]

Once again quickly chiming in. I don't think this needs to be a big drama, we are all working for a common goal here and we should be mindful of that.

But to be fair, I agree with rarenight on this. The split definitions are always gonna be messy and have uncertainties. Mostly it is a system for platforms with strict licensing, standing on canonized sets by the collector community, ignoring the analogue nature of reality and it's many caveats. I do think that No-Intro as a project should have a clear goal of preservation and archival of information. Taking steps like having database entries for bad dumps and modifications, current focus on submitting metadata and pictures, all of this speaks of a project that is about documenting the true nature of the gaming landscape and not pandering to easy playability and streamlining of it's complexity. In the same way MAME tries to be mainly a project to document how the arcades work, emulation of them being just a direct descendant of that thinking. And how Ares the emulator is prioritising accuracy and readable code over speed.

Ultimately it is about the people putting it the work, and while I am doing my part, others are far more active in these regards. It will be up to people like Xuom and Hiccup to make the final decision and while it is good to know what other contributors think, it cannot be directly a vote based process. Making everything perfectly is hard and it will need dedicated people, but as far as this problem goes, it is an important distinction.

Once we start separating platforms into different DATs, we start becoming arbiters of what is "true gaming". I don't think that that is what we should be doing here. Sure, tag it, make it easily separable, but the default, I think, should be all-encompasing. Because otherwise we are lying about the purpose of the DATs. Primary you either want a complete overview of what exists, or you want to check your own dump. And for both of those, a richer database prevents nothing. Let the rom hoarders either go down the stream to some 1 rom 1 version modified pack. No-Intro has a status of going the extra mile, I would like it to be uphold and taken even further.

[Fugus]

This is an inconsistent and biased delimiter for a split. I'm not going to engage with your logical fallacies any further, as it's clear arguing with you is a waste of time.

Pot, meet kettle.

It's consistent and based on objective criteria. Just because you refuse to see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

[Fugus]

Once we start separating platforms into different DATs, we start becoming arbiters of what is "true gaming". I don't think that that is what we should be doing here. Sure, tag it, make it easily separable, but the default, I think, should be all-encompasing. Because otherwise we are lying about the purpose of the DATs. Primary you either want a complete overview of what exists, or you want to check your own dump. And for both of those, a richer database prevents nothing. Let the rom hoarders either go down the stream to some 1 rom 1 version modified pack. No-Intro has a status of going the extra mile, I would like it to be uphold and taken even further.

Sir, I never implied it in regards to being True Gaming or anything like that. I wasn't even arguing that it needs to be split as the dat-o-matic can handle it just as well with tagged presets on the top that changed the label similar to how they do with encrypted vs decrypted roms for a few systems.

I was arguing that there is a very logical reason to do such a split for the end users as they are two objectively different sets of games.

Having a group of games that were all released during the games lifetime or made with the intention of being released during its lifetime and any games those same companies released on retro consoles to retroactively add to them going in one dat.

And having a group of games that was never made to be released during the consoles history or added retroactively in the other dat.

Those are pretty objective criteria that both cater to different groups of gamers with zero or next to zero overlap when it comes to parent/child collections. Those who mainly want to relive their childhood would only care about the first dat while those who actually want to see how things have gone, enjoys hacks, and see what has been made since will enjoy the second one with many including both.

All of which could be handled with the dat-o-matic but could also logically and consistently be split into 2 different sets with the first set being barely touched nowadays and will eventually be finished and left while the second dat would continue to stay really active for years to come.

[rarenight]

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[Fugus]

@RareNight

If the crux of your argument was that separating platforms is bad, then you are also arguing that they should merge the dats for 3DS carts and 3DS CDNs by that logic because they are all 3DS games which is asinine.

And again, why do YOU keep trying to claim that separating the dats is choosing what is and isn't a game? A claim no one else made.

And I put in zero exceptions or uncertainties. Which game, whether it be licensed, unlicensed, pirate, homebrew, aftermarket or even program did I say to delete from the No-Intro collections?

And with your last comment "A console had a certain amount of games released during its lifespan, and a certain amount of games released (and re-released) after its lifespan. The fact is they're all NES games. Or SNES games. Or Game Boy games. It's not our role to be gatekeepers. We're just here to preserve."

Then follow your own logic there and tell No-Intro that they should merge 3DS carts and CDN dats because "They are all 3DS Games" by your logic and all logical means that separate them shouldn't matter in your opinion by your own logic.

At no point did anyone claim that No-Intro was the gatekeepers of games and at no point would logically separating a dat into 2 different dats that still includes every game the original had just in more specialized sets turns them into gate keepers.

[sCZther]

The difference is the format, which is a clear cut separation - .3ds vs .cia. While a nes homebrew cart and a nes licensed cart are the same type of media and the dumps have the same structure.

As for "choosing what is a game", you underestimate the influence No-Intro has. 99% of the users will just download the default dat, not paying attention to any of the settings. And that is not counting the majority of users who will only get to the rompacks, etc. secondarily. And when you make a distinction like that, it tells a lot about what is considered "proper". It belittles the importance of the community efforts to keep the platform alive.

lets take the example of NES, which is what I guess most of us are talking about anyway. In many regions, the platform was far more popular through bootleg imports, separating that history contributes to the americanization of game history that is already very strong. Some unlicensed games, like Sachen, somehow ended on the canon lists of games, while others like Gluk are less fortunate. Then you have the problem of aftermarket, in many markets the platform was alive and well long after the official releases stopped, definitely overlapping with amateur efforts in others. So now you have "commercial" releases in some countries, while you have homebrew efforts in others. And also, the NES platform never stopped being commercially viable, being used for plug'n'play systems, handheld devices and others. Often even in a licensed capacity. And nowadays there is more NES games coming out then maybe even some years during the consoles heyday. And many are brilliant efforts which have higher quality. By shoving them aside, you are limiting their reach and in a way even hurting the growth of the communities making those games, as they are treated differently.

I do think some level of curation or seperation is a necessity. tracking down every multicart variation from asia is a tall order and would do little good. But for original full-fledged programs, no matter the origin, those should stand shoulder to shoulder in the main DAT.

[Fugus]

@sCZther

First, I am half asleep so apologizes if I come off as being "off" any.

I understand that, I was pointing out his own standard being that "It's all the same system" and then pretending that the other differentiation didn't matter when it does.

But, I can say that your explanation makes a million times more logical sense then his excuse of "They are all games" while pretending the differences between them aren't there. I never had any intention of belittling anyone's work or efforts. As I said before, just having presets in the dat-o-matic that changed the title similar to how they do with encrypted vs decrypted versions of the same set would more than do for 99% of the people. Just your first paragraph conveyed more than I had been told so far.

You admitting there is a difference but why that difference shouldn't be enough is much better than "They are all games so the other stuff shouldn't matter" which was what I was getting and what I was pointing out with what you brought up. As I was telling him before, I had no issues with them not splitting up the dats, I was just arguing with him that there was logical reasons why it could and potentially should.

As far as everything goes, the only real things I would ask from No-Intro:
1. Whether through accounts, cookies, or desktop app, they ability to save our selections per system so we don't have to hit 20+ boxes any time we want to update a custom dat we made.

2. The "Superseded" tag I posted before on another post that would make it much easier to repeated copies of a single game.

3. The "Unreleased" tag for Beta or Proto games that were actually completed just never released to separate them from the ones that were never finished or just proof of concept.

4. I also posted a streamlined version of the region selection but just having #1 would make that much less of an issue.

Probably something else but can't think of it at the moment. Have a nice day and think you for a better explanation than just trying to say "They are all games".

[KingMike]

Then you have the problem of aftermarket, in many markets the platform was alive and well long after the official releases stopped, definitely overlapping with amateur efforts in others. So now you have "commercial" releases in some countries, while you have homebrew efforts in others. And also, the NES platform never stopped being commercially viable, being used for plug'n'play systems, handheld devices and others. Often even in a licensed capacity. And nowadays there is more NES games coming out then maybe even some years during the consoles heyday. And many are brilliant efforts which have higher quality. By shoving them aside, you are limiting their reach and in a way even hurting the growth of the communities making those games, as they are treated differently.

I've seen when Frank Cifaldi Tweeted about his Plug 'n Play collection.
How the popularity of using Famiclones as the hardware basis for units with new content constitutes a platform that has lasted over 30 years (well, about to hit 40 years).
Though that might be a bit tricky to document, since some hardware is based on a platform called "VT One", I think, which has specs enhanced over the original, to create video almost resembling some 16-bit games.

[rarenight]

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