[Poll] Should Virtual Console extracted ROMs count towards verifications?

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Hiccup
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[Poll] Should Virtual Console extracted ROMs count towards verifications?

Post by Hiccup »

https://www.strawpoll.me/17944519 (on 2019/05/13 I will consider this "closed")

Argument for yes:
nintendo's unmodified VC ROMs are sourced from nintendo's internal archive and it doesn't seem like they've ever sourced dumps from the internet
it would help verify a bunch of ROMs

Argument for no:
nintendo's archive could be wrong, and they might have used a ROM from the internet, which would make these false verifications
verifications should only be from actual carts, since that is what the database is about
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BigFred
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Re: [Poll] Should Virtual Console extracted ROMs count towards verifications?

Post by BigFred »

I don't believe Nintendo uses ROM images from the internet but on the other hand - you never know. So at least if my doubts about those rips are extremely small I'd still rather vote no just to be absolutely safe. But actually it depends what was first. If you dump a cart and the data matches a file that was only available from VC (or extracted from any other source) before it appears to be logical to consider it verified. For instance I dump a physical copy of Phantasy Star IV PAL and it confirms the VC rip, I'd label it verified.
KingMike
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Re: [Poll] Should Virtual Console extracted ROMs count towards verifications?

Post by KingMike »

Wasn't one of Frank Cifaldi's speeches "Nintendo downloaded Super Mario Bros. from the Internet and sold it to us?" suggesting that at least one case had been discovered.
I do remember early in the Wii VC, I think someone mentioned having found ROMs with a proper iNES header from VC (that is, iNES is a fan-developed header and not an official one). Tecmo Bowl was one example, I think?
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BigFred
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Re: [Poll] Should Virtual Console extracted ROMs count towards verifications?

Post by BigFred »

KingMike wrote: 06 May 2019 15:17 Wasn't one of Frank Cifaldi's speeches "Nintendo downloaded Super Mario Bros. from the Internet and sold it to us?" suggesting that at least one case had been discovered.
I do remember early in the Wii VC, I think someone mentioned having found ROMs with a proper iNES header from VC (that is, iNES is a fan-developed header and not an official one). Tecmo Bowl was one example, I think?
If this video is the one I think it is it was pretty much guesswork that didn't make any sense to me. He claimed it was suspicious that the file was the same as the one found in the internet which according to him is unlikely since old dumper hardware would likely produce bad dumps and Nintendo should have a better one.

The better argument was the iNES header but most NES ROM rips from official sources use these headers and there were several good dumps with iNES header previously only available as bad dumps. I guess they just took over this format since it appears to be the easiest solution for NES emulation so far.
Hiccup
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Re: [Poll] Should Virtual Console extracted ROMs count towards verifications?

Post by Hiccup »

Nintendo actually hired one of the iNES developers in the past - that's probably why they have used the (variants of) the iNES format.
hydr0x
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Re: [Poll] Should Virtual Console extracted ROMs count towards verifications?

Post by hydr0x »

Yeah, Frank's argument was complete nonsense. Of course Nintendo's own ROM matches a known good dump, ignoring the header. The fact they used an established community header is not at all surprising, because it enables them to test with all emulators and tools supporting it easily. Add the fact that the format developer is actually on their team now and it's a no-brainer.
KingMike
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Re: [Poll] Should Virtual Console extracted ROMs count towards verifications?

Post by KingMike »

iNES is more of a de-facto standard. It's actually pretty terrible and much of what has been done is more like adding string and duct-tape.
I mean I get that it was the first and maybe there wasn't much of an idea how big the rabbit hole goes for NES cart hardware.
People tried to make better but it just couldn't pass among websites already distributing iNES ROMs and of course users were like "why change" if they were even aware of it.
(the polar opposite is MAME where it's usual for some of your ROM sets to randomly break and disappear every time you update, like a gamble)

Remember, this format defined Trainers (some feature of some obscure copier maybe only a few people had) but not PAL (something used by half the world). :P
omonim2007
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Re: [Poll] Should Virtual Console extracted ROMs count towards verifications?

Post by omonim2007 »

In global meaning (as I wrote before):

From the Publisher point of view there is no any difference between ROM image "holders" (cart, card, floppy image, CD-ROM, digital container like WAD or something else). They have a digital copy of the game, and they can publish it in preferred way as they wish.

We have a good mechanism of identification of any differences between cart/floppy images and any of digital ones. If we have just one verified copy of ROM image + VC dump (they are matched), we should count them as absolutely equivalent copies. So we need to have Verified (2) at output. If ROM image from modern digital copy differs from the historically original one (cart or card, or floppy image) than we create a new Clone record and add Virtual Console determination. But in both cases, these dumps must be Trusted as the digital copyright holder distributes them.

It’s not up to us to decide why certain changes were made in the game’s code in digital release, for our part, we only note them, but the source remains trusted in any case. This is not my own opinion, this is how to properly look at the process in terms of the legitimacy of the sources of dumps from Publisher's side.


Above there are some messages about NES VC dumps, but there are a lot of other systems, and VC dumps are mostly the same images as verified ROM dumps.

I definitely vote to take the virtual console dumps as Trusted ones!
relax
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Re: [Poll] Should Virtual Console extracted ROMs count towards verifications?

Post by relax »

I support BigFreds view here, it depends on the order. A dump from a trusted person after the VC-release is a confimation, not the other way around. The same argument can be made for any third person dump. I don't know if this is manageable is DoM, it at least require the dump date in DoM to be the dump date and not the add date.
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Tauwasser
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Re: [Poll] Should Virtual Console extracted ROMs count towards verifications?

Post by Tauwasser »

I would also second that at least one physical copy is needed to prove the game existed in that format physically in the first place. After a physical dump, VC dumps can be counted as verification, not the other way around.
skaman
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Re: [Poll] Should Virtual Console extracted ROMs count towards verifications?

Post by skaman »

Tauwasser wrote: 12 May 2019 22:52 I would also second that at least one physical copy is needed to prove the game existed in that format physically in the first place. After a physical dump, VC dumps can be counted as verification, not the other way around.
This is also my opinion.
omonim2007
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Re: [Poll] Should Virtual Console extracted ROMs count towards verifications?

Post by omonim2007 »

skaman wrote: 13 May 2019 00:21
Tauwasser wrote: 12 May 2019 22:52 I would also second that at least one physical copy is needed to prove the game existed in that format physically in the first place. After a physical dump, VC dumps can be counted as verification, not the other way around.
This is also my opinion.
+1 ))
Pr3tty F1y
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Re: [Poll] Should Virtual Console extracted ROMs count towards verifications?

Post by Pr3tty F1y »

omonim2007 wrote: 13 May 2019 10:54
skaman wrote: 13 May 2019 00:21
Tauwasser wrote: 12 May 2019 22:52 I would also second that at least one physical copy is needed to prove the game existed in that format physically in the first place. After a physical dump, VC dumps can be counted as verification, not the other way around.
This is also my opinion.
+1 ))
To quote a quote a quote - I believe this to be the best and most reliable way. It rules out hacked up/patched VC roms yet reasonably proves that when an equivalent physical copy exists, that it is indeed the 'true' copy of the image.
Hiccup
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Re: [Poll] Should Virtual Console extracted ROMs count towards verifications?

Post by Hiccup »

Here's a snapshot of the result today (the "end date" I set for the poll):
http://web.archive.org/web/201905131856 ... 17944519/r
60% No (6 votes)

40% Yes (4 votes)

10 votes in total
I voted no, but to be honest I'm still not entirely sure.

Maybe a halfway point could be to have a separate verification count for that includes virtual console verifications...
omonim2007
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Re: [Poll] Should Virtual Console extracted ROMs count towards verifications?

Post by omonim2007 »

Last update:

43% No (6 votes)

57% Yes (8 votes)

11votes in total

Sorry I voted right now (didn't see this thread's message before).
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