Atari and early-cart system clean up

[herocopter]

Revision 4??


Aftermarket strongly implies unlicensed and unapproved by Atari
- Run and Jump = safe
- Berzerk 2023 = safe

- Crystal Mines 2: Buried Treasure = unsafe. Don't think it was approved by Atari. Would even cut the P/C because it's more of a child than a clone.

[herocopter]

Advice I received about how to dat Coleco Gradius: assume unlicensed but not pirate. If someone paid multi-K money to officially Konami-license the CIB, inspect the box - manual - title screen - credits for clues that it's not an unapproved cash grab (or lack thereof suggesting the opposite).

T-Tris (Lynx) would be an easy example of permission not sought. Anything Donkey Kong also suffers the same fate (except some Crazy Kong boards). Though I've heard that Donkey Kong Remix tries to skirt the issue by installing on top of the real DK cabs.

[Richard Shands]

I am new to the conversation and the forums altogether and would like to add my 2 cents if I may.

It does concern licensing.
The Blue Sky Rangers wrote He-Man MOTU for the Colecovision and never released the prototype because it was never finished and also because they did not hold the MATTEL license. Regardless, they gave a copy of their work to the National Video Game Museum for preservation.

A couple of years ago they sold their PCB/ROM on eBay which I paid a hefty sum for beating out Collectorvision.
They (Collectorvision) wanted to sell it through their secret club as a cartridge while I was giving it away in a raffle as part of a promotion of a game I was working on.

The long story short is that I bought it but that does not give me the license to sell it in any form.

Collectorvision obtained a version, most likely from the NVGM and sold it anyway for a year or two. They recently released an altered version of it on Atari Age. The altered version now states "Not for resale" on the title screen.
Again, they do not own the license. From what I understand Collectorvision stopped selling it after they received the cease and desist from MATTEL. I could be wrong on that but that's the rumor floating around.

They seem to have a habit of doing things until they get caught and anyone who talks about it on Atari Age gets banned because it's searchable on Google.

So how would you go about adding something like that into No-Intro?
I don't mind donating my working version to the NoIntro community but I have no idea what MATTEL would say.
You could always grab Collectorvision's but it is full of bugs and now has the new alteration.

[herocopter]

That's a really neat + interesting history to share!


From a non-datter pov, I think it falls under
- Unlicensed = no Coleco license to sell on their console
- Pirate = no Mattel IP license either
- Aftermarket = maybe not since it's a proto, whereas the AA one would likely get tagged


People do share just rom hashes (sha1, sha256, md5, crc32, size) for historical purposes only. And optionally the dumper name if known + scans. You don't have to give the rom contents to anyone here - there's serialiazed and watermarked data that gets added to the dats. It gets tagged as "MIA" since no one will ever get the binary data outside of maybe a reseller in the long future (like the e-reader Kirby 1st Place Tournament card).

Legally you should bluntly state that you never gave it to anyone here yourself. If it shows up in the wild, it wasn't you since you donated it long ago - which you point out who the next recipient was.

You might receive a few questions about language or other minor details that only the cart owner could look into though.

[KingMike]

Donkey Kong (NES) vs Donkey Kong: Original Edition (NES) = similar problem. Same maker but tracing its code history is unclear to me without a teardown of both products. They're clearly strongly related in a sense which makes it confusing for me, which textbook definition is in-use at no-intro.

Donkey Kong: Original Edition is an officially-produced ROM hack. Nintendo made and initially distributed it as an exclusive bonus to a special edition Wii released in the European region in 2010. I've heard confirmation that the restored level is glitchy on real hardware, and supposedly analysis of the new code suggested it was written with some kind of modern tool (ie, it was rather sloppy compared to the coding of the original content).

Also, 2600 isn't the only console with the multiple name problem.
Sega Genesis/Mega Drive. There were multiple games where it was internationally sold under different titles, but the ROM data was identical. The one single program would look at the identified console region to at run-time alter content towards the developer's region-specific demands (like the title screen or other content changes).
I know of one Game Boy game, can't recall how this mess was settled. There was a game sold in European regions with the box and cartridge label identifying it as something like "Looney Tunes 2 - Tazmanian Devil in Christmas Island Capers". However the ROM data (can't remember if verified, last I contributed there was still many Game Boy games with unverified claims of identical USA and Europe content) is identical to the USA version "Taz-Mania" (and since Game Boy software has no means to identify the console region, it runs identical to, including the in-game title).
And as an additional kick in the nuts to the naming scheme, there is a different game called Taz-Mania in Europe (which is a second game from another developer and publisher), which was sold as Taz-Mania 2 in the USA.

[Psychofox11]

These are all great questions haha. I have many of the 'hush hush dont say anything for a while' releases from some of the secret clubs, especially for Colecovision. And yeah sometimes I don't know if it is pirate or not but at least it isn't licensed by the console maker and I'd be good to call them aftermarket. I'm not sure if my Masters of the Universe says 'not for resale' but I doubt it as it isn't from AtariAge.

Especially as some games are like "definitely don't tell anyone about this" while others that have big names on them are on their front page at times. I think marking it Aftermarket at a minimum is good, we can always update later just like we do when we find out a hash is bad.
Of course some guidelines to getting it as right as possible to begin with would be good!

[Richard Shands]

I would really like to know where you got it because I have the only complete working version on the planet.

There are 3 others that were donated to the NVGM by BSR Steve.
One doesn't work at all
Two works partially
Three has several bugs and missing features which is the one clandestinely obtained and sold by Toby St Austin. (collectorvision)
I have all four because I paid over $5,000 for the last remaining PCB in existence and all binaries came on a flash drive with the NVGM logo on it except for the working version.

The argument from collectorvision was that they wanted to only sell it to recover the cost of buying the rom.
if that was the case, they "obtained" it from either BSR Steve, which I find unlikely, or the NVGM. Then why did they acquire it for free then sell it for at least two years? This proves them as liars and cheats all under the protection of Atari Age and a Canadian Border.
You talk about or challenge collectorvision on anything and you get banned. At least 11 Coleco programmers have been thrown off Atari Age seen with my own eye's. God help you if you talk about the lies, flaws or unlicensed components concerning the Phoenix or Super Game Module.

Either way, I have no problems donating my working version as long as MATTEL doesn't come after me like they did collectorvision.

[herocopter]

These are all great questions haha. I have many of the 'hush hush dont say anything for a while' releases from some of the secret clubs, especially for Colecovision. And yeah sometimes I don't know if it is pirate or not but at least it isn't licensed by the console maker and I'd be good to call them aftermarket. I'm not sure if my Masters of the Universe says 'not for resale' but I doubt it as it isn't from AtariAge.

Especially as some games are like "definitely don't tell anyone about this" while others that have big names on them are on their front page at times. I think marking it Aftermarket at a minimum is good, we can always update later just like we do when we find out a hash is bad.
Of course some guidelines to getting it as right as possible to begin with would be good!

People post many of the "secret" club titles on YT, AA or ebay. Eventually the rest of us learn what they are (more quickly).

And Coleco publishers don't seem to mind openly using company logos without permission.
https://forums.atariage.com/topic/30167 ... nt=4458239

Just like all the other prototypes we have preserved in the past,

The He-Man and Masters of the Universe ROM is also released to the public! (*Not for Resale!)

Because all prototypes must be shared with the community!

The MAME folks disagreed because it's "another defaced prototype".

The argument from collectorvision was that they wanted to only sell it to recover the cost of buying the rom.
if that was the case, they "obtained" it from either BSR Steve, which I find unlikely, or the NVGM. Then why did they acquire it for free then sell it for at least two years? This proves them as liars and cheats all under the protection of Atari Age and a Canadian Border.
You talk about or challenge collectorvision on anything and you get banned. At least 11 Coleco programmers have been thrown off Atari Age seen with my own eye's. God help you if you talk about the lies, flaws or unlicensed components concerning the Phoenix or Super Game Module.

AA staff are likely involved with these projects or close friends. Censorship or protection depending which double-edged dangerous side you fell on.

Either way, I have no problems donating my working version as long as MATTEL doesn't come after me like they did collectorvision.

Coleco litigious history
http://nerdlypleasures.blogspot.com/201 ... -with.html


Factor 5 tracked down the buyers / sellers of the Indiana Jones Megadrive prototypes. Threats of unauthorized ownership or something tangential, so we're likely never going to see that dump.


If you make an xdelta or diff file between the "revisions", how much actually changed between 1-2, 2-3, 3-4? I have to wonder if it's possible to "guess" enough of the bytes that were mangled or bugfixed between Proto3 and Proto4. Or at least use 3-AA to restore the real 3. Hackers could patch off the AA release - the less content you need to share, the lower your liability. IPS patches are a legal grey area, depending if any copyrighted content is in the file itself.

I should probably zip up after this.


EDIT:

I would really like to know where you got it because I have the only complete working version on the planet.

Purely guesses.

How many unknown parties were shown the proto copies?
- Testers
- Artists
- Marketing
- Other Blue Sky team members
- Mattel ?
- Saved on company hdd and forgotten ?
- CES ?
- Parties ?
- GDC ?
- Stolen ?
- Research material for MOTU II ?
- Other unknown contractor from Mattel ?
- Assuming not anyone from Coleco ?

I know nothing about the business side of video games, so just curiosity as an outsider.

[Richard Shands]

Great reply and great questions.

Like I said, I have the only working and complete version on the planet.
It's as simple as that.

Any other is 1 of the 3 that were given over to the National Video Game Museum.
Up until the last couple of years is where it stayed until the manager colluded with Toby St Austin to release it against MATTEL'S Copyright.


Now, what I have learned is never donate to that Museum because the director can not be trusted and Toby is a weasel.

[Psychofox11]

I would really like to know where you got it because I have the only complete working version on the planet.

There are 3 others that were donated to the NVGM by BSR Steve.
One doesn't work at all
Two works partially
Three has several bugs and missing features which is the one clandestinely obtained and sold by Toby St Austin. (collectorvision)
I have all four because I paid over $5,000 for the last remaining PCB in existence and all binaries came on a flash drive with the NVGM logo on it except for the working version.

The argument from collectorvision was that they wanted to only sell it to recover the cost of buying the rom.
if that was the case, they "obtained" it from either BSR Steve, which I find unlikely, or the NVGM. Then why did they acquire it for free then sell it for at least two years? This proves them as liars and cheats all under the protection of Atari Age and a Canadian Border.
You talk about or challenge collectorvision on anything and you get banned. At least 11 Coleco programmers have been thrown off Atari Age seen with my own eye's. God help you if you talk about the lies, flaws or unlicensed components concerning the Phoenix or Super Game Module.

Either way, I have no problems donating my working version as long as MATTEL doesn't come after me like they did collectorvision.

Mine is Collectorvision.

[Richard Shands]

Collectorvision? So you have the version that is the least broken. I hope the $175 secret club membership was worth it. Broken prototypes and MSX ports.


I just reached a deal where the working He-Man game will be for release in an upcoming device with an official license by Mattel.
Whereas K. Smith bought the PCB

20210114_142310.jpg

[herocopter]

I just reached a deal where the working He-Man game will be for release in an upcoming device with an official license by Mattel.

Way to go! Nice to hear it worked out safely for you, and eventually we can get a legit dump.

[Psychofox11]

Collectorvision? So you have the version that is the least broken. I hope the $175 secret club membership was worth it. Broken prototypes and MSX ports.


I just reached a deal where the working He-Man game will be for release in an upcoming device with an official license by Mattel.
Whereas K. Smith bought the PCB

20210114_142310.jpg

Yes the membership is worth it, I got some stuff I really enjoy out of it, and not having an MSX, I really enjoy experiencing the ports on old hardware. I also like having weird, rare, and even broken carts, so it falls right in line with the type of rarity and odd thing I like to collect! If it isn't for you, definitely no pressure to join. I know what to expect and renew each year happily! I would like to keep things nice here though and understand we are all after different specifics but it comes together to make a nice preservation database! The comment felt to have a bit of an implied 'you dumbass' to the way it was phrased and all the emojis, but I just want to record releases regardless of origin and I know what I'm into! The weirder and wonkier the better in my book (for recording here, not necessarily for playing - but sometimes that too!). All good though, but yeah those facts make it appeal to me more as something that needs recorded.

We also need people willing to spend 10x that one one terrible homebrew that hasn't been datted, and those people exist! People who want nothing but perfect releases are valuable as well of course. Great group effort. You'll find me near the circus freak hangout personally!

It will be nice to see a proper version of it for sure! Thanks for helping to make that happen.

[Richard Shands]

No, I get what you are saying.

My issue with the "collectorvision" "Opcode" scene is that those two entities run Atari Age so much that anyone who challenges their rein gets knocked down a peg or even thrown off the website completely. Yours truly case in point.

I can count ten creators between today and 2019 thrown off when they created really nice games or hardware for the Colecovision.
Tossed due to what they call "creative differences", they criticize Opcode/Collectorvision or someone like LAWDAWG710 comes out of nowhere "Gas Lights" then crawls back under a rock. Then you have some MOD like Tempest or TPR that have been there since the beginning back him up when you can see, all it is is Dog Piling WOKE nonsense.

What has Collectorvision brought. MSX Ports even so the same games that Colecovision already has like Front Line.
While at the same time what do they sell in their underground club that they do not own the rights. The Pink Panther. Mr. Do sequels, Donkey Kong and it's sequel's. The He-Man game they they acquired by devious means. I don't know about you but I will never donate or look at the National Video Game Museum again in the same light.

What new have they also produced that is plagued with bugs. Donkey Kong Arcade, Ghost and Goblins and now Suite Macabre.
They also have to buy that ram/sound chip expander for several hundred dollars which is worth $20 in parts.

When you get into the Phoenix It was crowd funded, full of bugs and unlicensed features. They sold for a fortune and the cores never came that were promised and after looking at the code I have determined that they were stolen miSter code. The Atari 2600 is nearly identical in every way.

The only reason why they get away with it is because none of them live in the United States and what are you going to sue them over.
You personally have to be wronged while the only ones actually would be MATTEL, Nintendo and the like.

I had 7 original games me and my team were working on and I was tossed off because I won the ebay bid for He-Man rom and refused to share it.
Yea..I paid around $5,000 and it belonged to me. Now, I am out of that business because, honestly, have better things to do than play these war games with kids.

Seriously, what's next for them other than Time Pilot Arcade. Yup, I can play that on MAME and the Colecovision already has Time Pilot.
No originality, no creativity. Just the same old game or stolen MSX port.

Either way, if you want to start including their games in No-Intro I have no clue how that will play out because a good majority are nothing more than stolen roms from other machines, namely the MSX.

[Psychofox11]

I do think several would get a (pirate) tag though we'd need to be sure they don't have the rights in any of these cases. I'm not sure if opcode is the same. I never heard any of the behind the scenes stuff. I do wonder now with them being owned by Atari if they'd have less pull there, and honestly surprised Albert would do anyone wrong, but I only know the public facing side of things.

As far as datting I think a (Collectorvision) tag would be fine to differentiate them, as well as tags like (SGM Enhanced) and (SGM Required) for the Super Game Module. Also (Phoenix) for the couple that only run on it (Dead Tomb and Jester assuming they are dumpable the same).

They are janky and I like jank, but I do like people to be treated well. Just to add to the list of oddities, I saw on Atari forums yesterday and confirmed myself, their release of Circus is fine in a Colecovision, but put it in the Phoenix and it says F17/Phoenix version and loads a glitched up version like they gave up the idea but didn't disable the code. It at least gives you the option to play the original which works, but if you don't hit 9 before the menu goes away on a Phoenix you're in glitch town. It's controllable, but that's about it.

I'd always thought they seemed a tad sketch but I like the weird stuff, though I never got those vibes from Opcode. I'll keep my ear to the ground more as things proceed.