unlicensed archives

[Psychofox11]

I just wanted to get a clear statement on how we're handling Atari 2600/7800 now that Atari is doing re-releases and new games for the 2600+ and now 7800+ consoles (both consoles support games for both systems, like an original 7800, just different shells - they are the same console in effect).

First, I don't want it to be overly complicated by the fact that Atari owns AtariAge now. The owner (and now person in charge) of AtariAge has said that games aren't automatically licensed/approved by Atari because AtariAge sells them. It would be like Nintendo buying a chain of stores that happens to sell unlicensed Nintendo games, it wouldn't automatically grand them approval. Though I don't think Atari has a licensing system yet.

So that leads to how we divide it. I'd go with aftermarket for any new games released while Atari wasn't making it. For things released now, I think official Atari releases and re-release should not get an (aftermarket) tag, but new releases by others including AtariAge should still be (aftermarket), as AtariAge still sells many that pre-date the current Atari lifespan. It is also wort considering that AtariAge sells games that are not compatible with the new consoles due to unsupported mappers etc (the console is just a dumper and emulator, and some games are hard to dump or a way hasn't been found yet).

So released by Atari or re-release by anyone - not aftermarket
Released by someone else - aftermarket

Does that work for everyone?
There's also a question of a couple that Atari has taken over from AtariAge - it is like the reverse of a re-release. It was an aftermarket, now it is first party. Assuming the hashes are different, would the older cart from AtariAge be aftermarket, and the one from Atari not? That kind of breaks having all releases of one title in the same place though.

Sorry this Atari stuff makes my head hurt.

[rarenight]

I just wanted to get a clear statement on how we're handling Atari 2600/7800 now that Atari is doing re-releases and new games for the 2600+ and now 7800+ consoles (both consoles support games for both systems, like an original 7800, just different shells - they are the same console in effect).

First, I don't want it to be overly complicated by the fact that Atari owns AtariAge now. The owner (and now person in charge) of AtariAge has said that games aren't automatically licensed/approved by Atari because AtariAge sells them. It would be like Nintendo buying a chain of stores that happens to sell unlicensed Nintendo games, it wouldn't automatically grand them approval. Though I don't think Atari has a licensing system yet.

So that leads to how we divide it. I'd go with aftermarket for any new games released while Atari wasn't making it. For things released now, I think official Atari releases and re-release should not get an (aftermarket) tag, but new releases by others including AtariAge should still be (aftermarket), as AtariAge still sells many that pre-date the current Atari lifespan. It is also wort considering that AtariAge sells games that are not compatible with the new consoles due to unsupported mappers etc (the console is just a dumper and emulator, and some games are hard to dump or a way hasn't been found yet).

So released by Atari or re-release by anyone - not aftermarket
Released by someone else - aftermarket

Does that work for everyone?
There's also a question of a couple that Atari has taken over from AtariAge - it is like the reverse of a re-release. It was an aftermarket, now it is first party. Assuming the hashes are different, would the older cart from AtariAge be aftermarket, and the one from Atari not? That kind of breaks having all releases of one title in the same place though.

Sorry this Atari stuff makes my head hurt.

I know that for classic Atari, there isn't quite the same lot check methods that we have for Nintendo and Sega. And since the new "Atari" isn't anywhere close to being the same corp as the old-school 1970s-90s Atari, and is just a rebrand of Infogrames reviving those IPs for nostalgia bucks, I'd recommend the following:

- Original Atari 2600 / 7800 ROMs = Licensed status in DOM
- ROM re-releases of those vintage games = Licensed status in DOM (since all ROM re-releases should go in the same DAT as their originals for consistency, even if they have changes made to them)
- ROM re-releases of long-lost vintage protos that never got finished until now = Licensed status in DOM
...
- ROMs originally released after the Atari 2600 / 7800 died out = Unlicensed + Aftermarket status in DOM

With this strategy, unless they're giving us ROM re-releases of classic 1980s games, it doesn't matter what the new Atari SA does or doesn't do with their ownership over the Atari IPs. Their new age of Atari and their Atari 2600+ / Atari 7800+ / AtariAge homebrew store / whatnot is wholly distinct from the now-defunct Atari Inc / Atari Corp era (which died out in 1996), and that bucket of new games should be designated as (Aftermarket).

The goal behind this scheme is simplicity. We want to keep things as simple as possible to minimize the amount of needless debates over licensing. In other words, we don't want to make your head hurt haha

[smesgr]

not completely true. Atari Inc was never defunct but renamed first in Atari Games later in Atari Holdings and was integrated into Warner in 1992.
Atari Games (thus the Arcade part) was integrated into Midway Games 1996 and is also part of Warner now. They could if they wanted start using Atari Games any time they want.
This doesn't chance your point but want to make it clear there is a direct linage still existing in the big body of Warner company.

[Psychofox11]

With this strategy, unless they're giving us ROM re-releases of classic 1980s games, it doesn't matter what the new Atari SA does or doesn't do with their ownership over the Atari IPs. Their new age of Atari and their Atari 2600+ / Atari 7800+ / AtariAge homebrew store / whatnot is wholly distinct from the now-defunct Atari Inc / Atari Corp era (which died out in 1996), and that bucket of new games should be designated as (Aftermarket).

Just curious what you mean by "unless they're giving us ROM re-releases of classic 1980's games" - cause that is largely what they are doing, both digitally through collections, and on physical carts for the new consoles (any re-release I've checked has matched the original 80s one so far). In any case by default a re-release would get licensed status (in this case, due to lack of a licensing system, it would also go for Activision, Parker Bros, and the hundreds of other companies that put out an Atari 2600 game during its original lifespan).

At least there weren't any aftermarkets between its original demise and the re-launch of the 2600jr to compete with the NES lol. They did release some new games but were still basically the same company back then as well. I'm pretty sure Atari doesn't have any current employees that have worked there since 2600 (or even Jaguar) like Nintendo/Sega/Sony have some veterans around from their earlier game days. I'm good with saying it is Atari 'in name only'.

[rarenight]

Just curious what you mean by "unless they're giving us ROM re-releases of classic 1980's games" - cause that is largely what they are doing, both digitally through collections, and on physical carts for the new consoles (any re-release I've checked has matched the original 80s one so far). In any case by default a re-release would get licensed status (in this case, due to lack of a licensing system, it would also go for Activision, Parker Bros, and the hundreds of other companies that put out an Atari 2600 game during its original lifespan).

At least there weren't any aftermarkets between its original demise and the re-launch of the 2600jr to compete with the NES lol. They did release some new games but were still basically the same company back then as well. I'm pretty sure Atari doesn't have any current employees that have worked there since 2600 (or even Jaguar) like Nintendo/Sega/Sony have some veterans around from their earlier game days. I'm good with saying it is Atari 'in name only'.

I didn't know they were mostly re-releases, I haven't kept up much with the Atari scene unfortunately.

All I'm trying to convey is that we have to distinguish between games originally released for the classic era of Atari and games originally released for the modern era just like with Sega and Nintendo. Luckily there seems to be an easy break between the two eras.

So for example, new games like "Bentley Bear's Crystal Quest" bundled in with the new Atari 7800+ would be considered (Licensed: no + Aftermarket: yes): https://atari.com/products/atari-7800

But any game that originally released for Atari 7800 during its lifespan (1986-1991) is not Aftermarket. So a theoretical AtariAge re-release of Galaga for Atari 7800+ (which originally released on the 7800 in 1987) would inherit the original (Licensed: yes + Aftermarket: no) status of its original release if the hashes changed. This doesn't seem to be much of a factor since you said they have all matched to-date.

[Psychofox11]

But any game that originally released for Atari 7800 during its lifespan (1986-1991) is not Aftermarket. So a theoretical AtariAge re-release on Atari of Galaga for Atari 7800+ (which originally released on the 7800 in 1987) would inherit the original (Licensed: yes + Aftermarket: no) status of its original release if the hashes changed. This doesn't seem to be much of a factor since you said they have all matched to-date.

Yeah this sounds right to me. Otherwise it could get more confusions as Bentley Bear was an aftermarket from AtariAge before Atari took it over and made it a first-party release. I like sticking with the original timelines - a console re-release is kinda like a game re-release in this regard (it doesn't change anything about the way other stuff is datted).

[KingMike]

not completely true. Atari Inc was never defunct but renamed first in Atari Games later in Atari Holdings and was integrated into Warner in 1992.
Atari Games (thus the Arcade part) was integrated into Midway Games 1996 and is also part of Warner now. They could if they wanted start using Atari Games any time they want.
This doesn't chance your point but want to make it clear there is a direct linage still existing in the big body of Warner company.

No, Atari Corp. (home console/computer hardware and software for those platforms) and Atari Games (aka Tengen) (arcade games and home games for non-Atari consoles) were legally distinct companies.
Atari Corp. didn't care if Atari Games still used the Atari name and logo for arcade games, but they told Atari Games they had to use another game (for which they chose Tengen) to distinguish they are a legally separate company. I understand that is why even when Midway (after buying Time Warner Interactive who Tengen became after Warner bought them in 1994) was allowed to release compilations of games from both companies, they were instructed to never fix them together in the same product (the Atari Games IP they owned including the 1984+ arcade games, and the Atari Corp. licensed content included the arcade games before 1984).
Atari Corp. went bankrupt in 1996 and their IP got sold to a few parties including Hasbro who sold them to Infogrames in 2002 who over a few years legally rebranded to the Atari name. While during that time Midway retained ownership of Atari Games until they went bankrupt in 2009 and Warner bought them out again.

[smesgr]

and? I did not say anything which contradicts your statement.
Yes Atari Corp was an complete different company. What has this to do with Atari INC.? Atari INC was renamed to Atari Games after Warner sold the _rights_ (but not the company) to use the name ATARI in the home market (thus computer and consoles) to Tramel Technology. After this Tramel renamed his company to Atari Corp.
Still the legal follow company of ATARI INC was still Atari Games, Inc.. After that they did the same trick with the arcade with a joint venture of Namco and Warner with the newly created "AT Games, Inc." which renamed itself to Atari Games Corp. While the remaining company was renamed to Atari Holdings Inc. Atari Holding Inc was integrated into Warner in 1992.

So Atari INC never was defunct only integrated.

AT Games was later integrated into Midway (as Midway Games West). Warner integrated Midway (as a company) in 2013 into Warner Interactive.

Atari Corp did also not went bankrupt in 1996 - you may used the term more broadly as "had no money" - but Atari Corp merged with "JT Storage" to "JTS Corp" thus did not exists as a company under the name "Atari" anymore. JTS went bankrupt in 1998 and the brand name and rights was sold to "HIAC XI" a newly created subsidiary of Hasbo. Thus "Tramel Tech/Atari Corp/JTS Corp" went bankrupt in 1998.

[Psychofox11]

We're gonna need a lot of tags to track all this based on when stuff was released! Every filename should include the current and future owners of that IP.
(Since it isn't always clear on boards, I'm joking!)