Poll: Should No-Intro split unlicensed ROMs into separate DATs from licensed ROMs?

[Fugus]

This is an inconsistent and biased delimiter for a split. I'm not going to engage with your logical fallacies any further, as it's clear arguing with you is a waste of time.

Pot, meet kettle.

It's consistent and based on objective criteria. Just because you refuse to see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

[Fugus]

Once we start separating platforms into different DATs, we start becoming arbiters of what is "true gaming". I don't think that that is what we should be doing here. Sure, tag it, make it easily separable, but the default, I think, should be all-encompasing. Because otherwise we are lying about the purpose of the DATs. Primary you either want a complete overview of what exists, or you want to check your own dump. And for both of those, a richer database prevents nothing. Let the rom hoarders either go down the stream to some 1 rom 1 version modified pack. No-Intro has a status of going the extra mile, I would like it to be uphold and taken even further.

Sir, I never implied it in regards to being True Gaming or anything like that. I wasn't even arguing that it needs to be split as the dat-o-matic can handle it just as well with tagged presets on the top that changed the label similar to how they do with encrypted vs decrypted roms for a few systems.

I was arguing that there is a very logical reason to do such a split for the end users as they are two objectively different sets of games.

Having a group of games that were all released during the games lifetime or made with the intention of being released during its lifetime and any games those same companies released on retro consoles to retroactively add to them going in one dat.

And having a group of games that was never made to be released during the consoles history or added retroactively in the other dat.

Those are pretty objective criteria that both cater to different groups of gamers with zero or next to zero overlap when it comes to parent/child collections. Those who mainly want to relive their childhood would only care about the first dat while those who actually want to see how things have gone, enjoys hacks, and see what has been made since will enjoy the second one with many including both.

All of which could be handled with the dat-o-matic but could also logically and consistently be split into 2 different sets with the first set being barely touched nowadays and will eventually be finished and left while the second dat would continue to stay really active for years to come.

[Fugus]

@RareNight

If the crux of your argument was that separating platforms is bad, then you are also arguing that they should merge the dats for 3DS carts and 3DS CDNs by that logic because they are all 3DS games which is asinine.

And again, why do YOU keep trying to claim that separating the dats is choosing what is and isn't a game? A claim no one else made.

And I put in zero exceptions or uncertainties. Which game, whether it be licensed, unlicensed, pirate, homebrew, aftermarket or even program did I say to delete from the No-Intro collections?

And with your last comment "A console had a certain amount of games released during its lifespan, and a certain amount of games released (and re-released) after its lifespan. The fact is they're all NES games. Or SNES games. Or Game Boy games. It's not our role to be gatekeepers. We're just here to preserve."

Then follow your own logic there and tell No-Intro that they should merge 3DS carts and CDN dats because "They are all 3DS Games" by your logic and all logical means that separate them shouldn't matter in your opinion by your own logic.

At no point did anyone claim that No-Intro was the gatekeepers of games and at no point would logically separating a dat into 2 different dats that still includes every game the original had just in more specialized sets turns them into gate keepers.

[sCZther]

The difference is the format, which is a clear cut separation - .3ds vs .cia. While a nes homebrew cart and a nes licensed cart are the same type of media and the dumps have the same structure.

As for "choosing what is a game", you underestimate the influence No-Intro has. 99% of the users will just download the default dat, not paying attention to any of the settings. And that is not counting the majority of users who will only get to the rompacks, etc. secondarily. And when you make a distinction like that, it tells a lot about what is considered "proper". It belittles the importance of the community efforts to keep the platform alive.

lets take the example of NES, which is what I guess most of us are talking about anyway. In many regions, the platform was far more popular through bootleg imports, separating that history contributes to the americanization of game history that is already very strong. Some unlicensed games, like Sachen, somehow ended on the canon lists of games, while others like Gluk are less fortunate. Then you have the problem of aftermarket, in many markets the platform was alive and well long after the official releases stopped, definitely overlapping with amateur efforts in others. So now you have "commercial" releases in some countries, while you have homebrew efforts in others. And also, the NES platform never stopped being commercially viable, being used for plug'n'play systems, handheld devices and others. Often even in a licensed capacity. And nowadays there is more NES games coming out then maybe even some years during the consoles heyday. And many are brilliant efforts which have higher quality. By shoving them aside, you are limiting their reach and in a way even hurting the growth of the communities making those games, as they are treated differently.

I do think some level of curation or seperation is a necessity. tracking down every multicart variation from asia is a tall order and would do little good. But for original full-fledged programs, no matter the origin, those should stand shoulder to shoulder in the main DAT.

[Fugus]

@sCZther

First, I am half asleep so apologizes if I come off as being "off" any.

I understand that, I was pointing out his own standard being that "It's all the same system" and then pretending that the other differentiation didn't matter when it does.

But, I can say that your explanation makes a million times more logical sense then his excuse of "They are all games" while pretending the differences between them aren't there. I never had any intention of belittling anyone's work or efforts. As I said before, just having presets in the dat-o-matic that changed the title similar to how they do with encrypted vs decrypted versions of the same set would more than do for 99% of the people. Just your first paragraph conveyed more than I had been told so far.

You admitting there is a difference but why that difference shouldn't be enough is much better than "They are all games so the other stuff shouldn't matter" which was what I was getting and what I was pointing out with what you brought up. As I was telling him before, I had no issues with them not splitting up the dats, I was just arguing with him that there was logical reasons why it could and potentially should.

As far as everything goes, the only real things I would ask from No-Intro:
1. Whether through accounts, cookies, or desktop app, they ability to save our selections per system so we don't have to hit 20+ boxes any time we want to update a custom dat we made.

2. The "Superseded" tag I posted before on another post that would make it much easier to repeated copies of a single game.

3. The "Unreleased" tag for Beta or Proto games that were actually completed just never released to separate them from the ones that were never finished or just proof of concept.

4. I also posted a streamlined version of the region selection but just having #1 would make that much less of an issue.

Probably something else but can't think of it at the moment. Have a nice day and think you for a better explanation than just trying to say "They are all games".

[KingMike]

Then you have the problem of aftermarket, in many markets the platform was alive and well long after the official releases stopped, definitely overlapping with amateur efforts in others. So now you have "commercial" releases in some countries, while you have homebrew efforts in others. And also, the NES platform never stopped being commercially viable, being used for plug'n'play systems, handheld devices and others. Often even in a licensed capacity. And nowadays there is more NES games coming out then maybe even some years during the consoles heyday. And many are brilliant efforts which have higher quality. By shoving them aside, you are limiting their reach and in a way even hurting the growth of the communities making those games, as they are treated differently.

I've seen when Frank Cifaldi Tweeted about his Plug 'n Play collection.
How the popularity of using Famiclones as the hardware basis for units with new content constitutes a platform that has lasted over 30 years (well, about to hit 40 years).
Though that might be a bit tricky to document, since some hardware is based on a platform called "VT One", I think, which has specs enhanced over the original, to create video almost resembling some 16-bit games.

[Hiccup]

I think the most important thing is properly categorising things in the database and providing options for people to filter stuff. That way each person can use the data to their own preferences.

[Fugus]

The issue with excluding pirate and unlicensed content from the official games ignores a key thing about them.

Unlicensed content was actually released, or intended to, on the system in question, homebrew never was. That is a major key differentiation. While not devaluing homebrew or aftermarket in any way with many of them match or even beating the other stuff, that weren't actually released on the system during its official lifespan, not even thought about.

That is an objective difference between the two, not saying they are better or worse, but they aren't the same due to that one fact.

Separating homebrew and Aftermarket from the rest makes some level of logical sense, separating unlicensed and pirate content does not due to that one key difference.

Splitting what was available to the system or its retro-remakes at the time from what you could only play through emulator or aftermarket after the system officially died makes perfect sense which is the entire point I keep trying to hammer home to you.

I am fine with them not splitting but to pretend those differences don't exist is crazy. Not saying they are better or worse but they are objectively different in that regard.

[Pandor]

not intentionally bumping the thread, but I would agree with Fugus. As a enthusiast and collector I am interested in pirated (unlicensed)/released versions of a game. But not so much in (user) translations/hacks, or homebrew, that where never meant to be released in the lifespan of the console. But that's a personal, and purist opinion. but as it is currently, it is hard to distinguish.

[Fugus]

Splitting Unlicensed from the rest doesn't really make as much sense when those unlicensed games were released or intended to be released on those systems during its original life span.

Splitting based on whether the game was supposed to be released on the actual system during its lifespan or was added by the original companies through either the classic consoles or the virtual console service makes since though.

If we were to split it based on that objective criteria then that unlicensed would also include pirate and aftermarket which would make more sense since it would be splitting off the official releases by themselves but still ends up with you taking games that were released for the system and lumping them with games that never were intended to be.

[dreimer]

Well... I wanted to keep this thread ignored as whatever I say will start a new discussion, but as things seem to get on and on and the end is a database for ROMs in a grey scratchfree cart shell, a game starting with letter A and a green PCB in it... I could not stay silent anymore... (Sarcasm btw)

For that splitting you got your settings on download. Default off even. All discussion here lead to shred the database into several already. What comes next? Separation after cart color?

All that stuff is only of use for one type of user here. Those who hoard all ROMs aka ROMsets. All these steps made it unnecessary complicated for those who just want to verify a ROM file they dumped themselves. Now think again on which side the project stands and what it is meant to be used for mainly. And yes, that comes from a hoarder (me) ^^ A hoarder who understood that this project can be harmed by such behavior.

If someone of this user group finds it difficult to keep up with all the changes for example in NES db... bad for them.

You did your best to stay neutral by setting still sold games to private and still every decision here shows a different image.

Maybe I am overly dramatic here, but I want this project to stay ALIVE, so sorry for my emotional and sarcasm filled post here!

[Fugus]

@Dreimer

I agree that I also want to see the site alive. I was arguing that if there is a split, it should not be unlicensed versus not as those were both still released on the system with a few I think even making it into becoming licensed and even included on their classic consoles.

If they do a split, it should be separating the aftermarket and homebrew from the rest and basically splitting into :

Group 1 that includes everything that was actually released or intended to be released on the console in question or the virtual console or classic versions later as they were intended to actually be released on those and

Group 2 that includes stuff like Homebrew and Aftermarket and only stuff that was never intended to be released on the console, virtual console, or classic consoles of them.

Group 1 would stay pretty well static as it has a finite number of games that will only ever increase with classic consoles and virtual console releases which isn't common while Group 2 would still be constantly changing as people continue to make stuff.

[Hiccup]

All that stuff is only of use for one type of user here. Those who hoard all ROMs aka ROMsets. All these steps made it unnecessary complicated for those who just want to verify a ROM file they dumped themselves. Now think again on which side the project stands and what it is meant to be used for mainly. And yes, that comes from a hoarder (me) ^^ A hoarder who understood that this project can be harmed by such behavior.

I don't think the project regulates how the dats are used, nor should it, in my opinion. I don't think it'd be possible to do so, nor would it be popular, nor would it serve really any practical purpose.

[N1zle]

I've been collecting ROMSETs for a long time now and every time something like this changes, I feel like these are unneccessary. But this time, it has gone too far. Been a while since I updated my GB line of DATs but once I did, I found a massive flaw with the way things are currently.

My standard DAT of GB games has only Licensed/Unlicensed checked. Downloaded, looks good, have all but a few missing, maybe some BIOS files, all good.

Parent-clone DAT, however, has over a hundred missing files. Compared to the SIX on the standard, this sounded insane to me, so I compared the two and, sure enough, all those 90 missing are all Aftermarket, Homebrew and the such.

My point is: unless the whole site is changed to enable "picking" AM/HB or avoiding them altogether, I implore you to split them into a separate DAT. I agree with Fugus' suggestion to split all ROMs into 2 DATs, one keeping everything released (Licensed) or intended to release (Unlicensed) during the console's lifetime, and another for afterlife ROMs (Aftermarket/Homebrew). This makes a stable, almost fixed DAT for those that don't care about Homebrew, and another DAT that's constatly changing, with the addition of games that are released in 2023 for a 1989 console.

[Hiccup]

Parent-clone DAT, however, has over a hundred missing files. Compared to the SIX on the standard, this sounded insane to me, so I compared the two and, sure enough, all those 90 missing are all Aftermarket, Homebrew and the such.

I think that's because the P/C fields haven't been filled out for those. That's not an inherent problem with the system, just an oversight with those particular entries atm.

But yeah I do get the appeal of being able to exclude the aftermarket stuff.