Suggestion for many systems for a new tag "Superseded"

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Fugus
Posts: 45
Joined: 11 Oct 2022 17:50

Suggestion for many systems for a new tag "Superseded"

Post by Fugus »

I originally posted this on the Datomatic site but was told it was better to post it here. Will just copy and paste both parts of it.

Post #1:

Was thinking about this for filtering purposes. When you have games that have 2+ Revisions along with released on the ports onto other systems as well.

When it comes to those, would be a good thing to take all but the best or most complete version of those files and put a "Superseded" label on the rest.

Would be a good way to create DAT files that could filter out all but the single best versions of a game in a collection for those who want to keep their collections accurate but without repeating games.

Good for games like Super Smash Brothers on 3DS which has something like 11 Revisions or all those games that were released on Nintendo's virtual console that also got back ported into the original systems No-Intro collections.

Post #2

Here is an extreme hypothetical example here is a game list:

Final Fantasy Adventure (Demo) (USA)
Final Fantasy Adventure (USA)
Final Fantasy Adventure (Rev. 1) (USA)
Final Fantasy Adventure (Rev. 2) (USA)
Final Fantasy Adventure (Rev .3) (USA)
Final Fantasy Adventure (Rev. 4) (USA)
Final Fantasy Adventure (Rev. 5) (USA)
Final Fantasy Adventure (Rev. 6) (USA)
Mystic Quest (Collection of SaGa)

Now in this example, they are all different versions of the same game. The actual game supersedes the Demo so that would (Superseded) added.

Then when you looked at the original was replaced by revision 1-4 all of which added content or bug fixes. So the original and Revision 1-3 all get (Superseded) as well.

Now between Revisions 4 & 5, there is no new content or fixes with the likely changes being due to production change issues or something like that, in situations like that, take the newest version so Revision 4 would be (Superseded).

Now between 5 & 6. There was no new content or bug fixes included but the developer included some anti-piracy measure that made it harder to dump properly which made it harder for the modding community to hacks for it or maybe they introduced an error unintentionally. But either way it is functionally inferior to the previous version, at this point Revision 6 would be (Superseded).

Now we are down to Revision 5 vs "Mystic Quest", they are functionally the same game where even the company based it on Rev 5 because their Rev 6 made it hard for the switch to emulate. While Mystic Quest is the newest version functionally, it was not based originally on the system and the name doesn't match what players of the original game would expect was "Mystic Quest" would be (Superseded) leaving only Revision 5 and a list that looks like:

Final Fantasy Adventure (Demo) (USA) (Superseded)
Final Fantasy Adventure (USA) (Superseded)
Final Fantasy Adventure (Rev. 1) (USA) (Superseded)
Final Fantasy Adventure (Rev. 2) (USA) (Superseded)
Final Fantasy Adventure (Rev .3) (USA) (Superseded)
Final Fantasy Adventure (Rev. 4) (USA) (Superseded)
Final Fantasy Adventure (Rev. 5) (USA)
Final Fantasy Adventure (Rev. 6) (USA) (Superseded)
Mystic Quest (Collection of SaGa) (Superseded)


Where you can filter out the other version and leave you with the best version where if you have that one, there is not much reason to use the others outside of shear preservation.

The No-Intro collection has a massive influence on the overall community and this would also encourage mod creators to mainly all focus on singular revisions of roms as well for their mods unless they functionally needed a versions setup. That would make it easier for those who don't know much about modding to get into using a modded game as they don't have to search for a specific version as hard either.

Generally a win all the way around for all sides involved.


Thank you guys very much for your work.
Hiccup
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Re: Suggestion for many systems for a new tag "Superseded"

Post by Hiccup »

Currently there is the "parent-clone" system, which is a similar thing. But at the moment, the latest retail European revision is always chosen. But for some systems, like you suggest, I think it might be best to go with the USA version, since for a lot of older consoles, the European versions use PAL video format, meaning lower maximum frame rate, and often the conversions to PAL aren't that good. I'm not if having game specific decisions about the best version would work, as that could be a bit arbitrary, but maybe it could...
Fugus
Posts: 45
Joined: 11 Oct 2022 17:50

Re: Suggestion for many systems for a new tag "Superseded"

Post by Fugus »

I was thinking of this system as being implemented on a per country basis so if you decided to exclude superseded items from the set it would leave you with the best version of each country in the set unless you selected not to include that country as well.

Would allow people to select which region they wanted and still get the selected best version.

As far which version was the best, would typically default to the newest version unless there were actual reasons that made it worse such as the inclusion of bugs or DRM that made hacks on that version harder. Having the game being selected as the one not superseded wouldn't necessarily mean that it was the absolute best as others could be equal it it, just that is was the most recent version that wasn't worse than the rest and in the case of games being rereleased under a different title, the one that the public in the region was familiar to would be chosen all other things being equal.

Never used the Parent-Clone versions, figured it just took all the different versions of the game and put them in the same archive. If this is the case, this could be combined with it so that only the most recent best versions were kept for each region as well.

In either case would make setting up a 1 game 1 rom collection much easier with the only change being a new tag that was used for exclusion of repeating games.

For the hacking community, it would basically tell them which version of the game that average rom user would have so they would most likely concentrate on that version making it easier for players to make sure they have the proper game for the release as well.
Hiccup
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Re: Suggestion for many systems for a new tag "Superseded"

Post by Hiccup »

Yeah that makes sense, although I wonder how it would be implemented in the database exactly...
Fugus
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Joined: 11 Oct 2022 17:50

Re: Suggestion for many systems for a new tag "Superseded"

Post by Fugus »

Honestly have no clue how the stuff is implemented.

I figured it could be treated the same way you can include or exclude betas, demos, and prototypes. Just have another option where you can include or exclude games tagged superseded.
CoreyEMTP
Posts: 2
Joined: 18 Oct 2020 08:40

Re: Suggestion for many systems for a new tag "Superseded"

Post by CoreyEMTP »

While I like the idea, getting peeps to follow it religiously would be nigh impossible, and therefore would throw a lot of wrenches in the works. Also, I think it would be hard to get consensus on what exactly the "best" version entails.

This tool:

https://github.com/unexpectedpanda/retool

...is a fairly recent entry into the scene, but I've found it invaluable in creating the most accurate 1G1R sets I've found. It's highly configurable, and is capable of handling exceptions from the default. They have a maintained, curated list of the exceptions that is updated from within the app, and you can add your own easily. I really hope it's a project that thrives.
Fugus
Posts: 45
Joined: 11 Oct 2022 17:50

Re: Suggestion for many systems for a new tag "Superseded"

Post by Fugus »

The picking of the "Best" wouldn't be a really open ended criteria on it. Would have a set way of judging it and being chosen wouldn't actually mean you were the absolute best as others could still equal it in quality, just that out of all the ones that were judged to be the most stable of them, it was also the most recent.

By default, the most recent version is chosen unless something makes it inferior to what proceeded it or is just a name change to something that the player base largely doesn't know.

Hope Retool continues to go well, especially with how little ReDump seems to customize their Dat files which requires something like that. ReDump is forcing me to learn how to use command-line in ClrMamePro to customize the search and rebuild critera while also making sure to research exactly what region naming schemes they have going so I don't miss a game with multiple regions in the name.

This setup though would allow more than just a 1 game 1 rom set. With this, you could default to having only the single best for each region as well just be choosing to exclude superseded roms while still keeping every region and all.

This would also make it were the game hacking community would also know the main versions of a rom the community outside of completionist is most likely to have and will typically focus the hacks on those copies unless there is a technical reason otherwise.

This could actually work with Retool if people wanted, just have Dat-O-Matic remove the superseded roms which would leave just a single game from each region that the No-Intro group themselves has judged to be worth keeping and then filter by preference on region so can filter down to a single one.

Also, this way you could filter out the prototypes and betas of games that have full on been released but still keep the betas and prototypes of games that were never released.

Slight aside though, honestly wish they could create a way to designate if a beta/prototype is just a proof of concept rom or otherwise massively incomplete versus one that was completed by never actually released. Maybe by instead of designating them as "Beta/Prototype" have them labeled as "Unreleased" or something similar. Was toying around with a few and came across some that seemed like a full game while others weren't even what you could really call a game at all they were so incomplete.
KingMike
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Joined: 22 Sep 2012 16:36

Re: Suggestion for many systems for a new tag "Superseded"

Post by KingMike »

"Best version" is a matter of opinion.

This really doesn't sound like something we should be in the matter of curating. We are not doing this to review the game for the user.

This is only a problem for people downloading so many ROMs that they want people to tell them what to play. I see exactly the same thing with ROM hacks to "improve" old games. It's nice that people interested in playing old games, but then they want to worry about only playing the "best" experience with it.
I grew up playing the buggy-ass USA version of Lufia II and loved it!
Hiccup
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Re: Suggestion for many systems for a new tag "Superseded"

Post by Hiccup »

There are places that document differences between ROM revisions btw, e.g. TCRF.net:
https://tcrf.net/Category:Games_with_re ... ifferences
https://tcrf.net/Category:Games_with_re ... ifferences
Fugus
Posts: 45
Joined: 11 Oct 2022 17:50

Re: Suggestion for many systems for a new tag "Superseded"

Post by Fugus »

Didn't feel this is a huge enough deal to warrant an new thread, but a slightly different suggestion. Differentiate between games that were completed and never released versus the incomplete beta's and prototypes of games.

Never even realized that Mickey's Playtown Adventure for the SNES wasn't officially released as I had let my nieces and nephews play on it back in the early 2000's. Was going to pull it up to let them relive some memories only to see that it was filtered out of my list.

If I could please request that instead of just having them labeled at (Beta) or (Proto), have them labeled as (Unreleased) or (Completed Beta)/(Completed Proto).

Many like to filter out the games labeled Beta or Proto because they are many, if not most, times incomplete.
KingMike
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Joined: 22 Sep 2012 16:36

Re: Suggestion for many systems for a new tag "Superseded"

Post by KingMike »

People who download full ROM sets and worry about betas being incomplete probably aren't going to play all the "completed" games either (thus making it not really matter if they're completed or not). :P
Hiccup
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Re: Suggestion for many systems for a new tag "Superseded"

Post by Hiccup »

Having protos marked as completed or not might not be a bad idea. Although that is potentially quite subjective...
Fugus
Posts: 45
Joined: 11 Oct 2022 17:50

Re: Suggestion for many systems for a new tag "Superseded"

Post by Fugus »

@KingMike
Many don't notice if they are beta's or prototypes. They just notice the game by name. I mentioned Mickey's Playtown Adventure for the SNES because my nieces and nephews loved that game and played it to death when they were younger around 2007 or so.

Went to put it on for one of them yesterday just for nostalgia's sake because they remembered it but didn't realize I had it filtered out because it was labeled as a prototype.

@Hiccup

Can understand it potentially being subjective on the fringes but at the same time, wouldn't most of them be pretty clear cut? Like a completed game that wasn't released would definitely be marked as just *Unreleased" while the ones that either had an official release or was just a single level or a proof of concept or in a very buggy state would stay as their beta/prototype marking.

On a related note, Why isn't "10-Pin Bowling" for the original Game Boy marked as one of those unreleased formats? Last I checked it was still marked as a normal release but from what I could tell it was an unreleased game that they just ported to the Game Boy Color instead.

Actually, between an Unreleased and a Superseded tag, it would make a 1 game 1 rom set trivial with the datomatic without ReTool
Hiccup
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Re: Suggestion for many systems for a new tag "Superseded"

Post by Hiccup »

Fugus wrote: 27 Dec 2022 17:08 On a related note, Why isn't "10-Pin Bowling" for the original Game Boy marked as one of those unreleased formats? Last I checked it was still marked as a normal release but from what I could tell it was an unreleased game that they just ported to the Game Boy Color instead.
fixed
Fugus
Posts: 45
Joined: 11 Oct 2022 17:50

Re: Suggestion for many systems for a new tag "Superseded"

Post by Fugus »

Thank you.

One other question if you don't mind, when it comes to stuff like the Game Shark and Game Genie, shouldn't they also be given the "Program" tag as well since they aren't actually a game? Same goes with the X-Band and all them aging and burn in carts you come across.

Figure they aren't actually games, they are programs and utilities that either diagnose the systems or hack the games or load games over a network.
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