"aftermarket" and "homebrew" at the same time

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xuom2
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"aftermarket" and "homebrew" at the same time

Post by xuom2 »

We should avoid the situation where "aftermarket" and "homebrew" are flagged at the same time:
- archives with both flags should be renamed simply "homebrew"
- "aftermarket" is only really for unlicensed commercial stuff
I will enable a warning on DOM for this and will do a report of archives to be fixed (this can be done in batch job).

I will proceed in this way, but if you have something against this, just reply!
Myria
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Re: "aftermarket" and "homebrew" at the same time

Post by Myria »

How is the difference between homebrew and aftermarket defined?
Hiccup
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Re: "aftermarket" and "homebrew" at the same time

Post by Hiccup »

Well that's part of the problem, we don't have clear definitions.

Aftermarket means it was released a certain time after the lifespan of the console.

Homebrew means something released by a non-professional person/group, but now there are paid-for homebrew games, basically unlicensed indie games, its not clear where they fit in...
Flashfire42
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Re: "aftermarket" and "homebrew" at the same time

Post by Flashfire42 »

Aftermarket should be physical cartridges only. Homebrew would be stuff released digitally be it paid or otherwise. Pirate cartridges would be games that are released as designed to trick someone into thinking they are buying a licensed game
NESBrew12
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Re: "aftermarket" and "homebrew" at the same time

Post by NESBrew12 »

I started writing some definitions in the wiki but we definitely need more. I always assumed Aftermarket meant the game came out after the console lifetime, but I see that's a broad assumption.
Definitions

Scene Dump = Dump originating from a scene release by the warez/piracy scene
Verified = ROM has two or more Trusted Dumps
Locked = DATs are locked to prevent edit conflicts when someone is doing a lot of edits. In the future DoM may be reworked so that DATs can still be viewed/downloaded while they are locked.
Licensed = Game was licensed to run on the console by the console manufacturer (ie. Nintendo Seal of Quality)
Unlicensed = Any game created for a console but were never approved by the console manufacturer (ie. Sachen, Piko Interactive, Mega Cat Studios)
Homebrew = Unlicensed games that are developed and released by teams of only a few people. (ie. Battle Kid, Hong Kong '97, Alice Sisters)
Pirate = Unlicensed games using assets that have been used without consent of the owner.
I agree with @hiccup, the line between "homebrew" and "aftermarket" is becoming more and more blurred.
omonim2007
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Re: "aftermarket" and "homebrew" at the same time

Post by omonim2007 »

We discussed that definitions before. Let me remind you what we agreed.

Aftermarket means it was released PHYSICALLY a certain time after the lifespan of the console.

Homebrew means something released DIGITALLY by a non-professional person/group.

If Homebrew project once released on a physical device we must to change it tag to Aftermarket.

But I remember that not everyone agreed with such definitions ))
Icyelut
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Re: "aftermarket" and "homebrew" at the same time

Post by Icyelut »

omonim2007 wrote: 04 Oct 2022 05:51 We discussed that definitions before. Let me remind you what we agreed.

Aftermarket means it was released PHYSICALLY a certain time after the lifespan of the console.

Homebrew means something released DIGITALLY by a non-professional person/group.

If Homebrew project once released on a physical device we must to change it tag to Aftermarket.

But I remember that not everyone agreed with such definitions ))
I agree with this system. It's easy to understand and has flexibility for homebrew projects that evolve.

One point, though: I don't think the professional/non-professional part should even be mentioned as it will just be a point of confusion.
NESBrew12
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Re: "aftermarket" and "homebrew" at the same time

Post by NESBrew12 »

Thanks, @omonim2007. I actually hadn't seen those definitions before.

I like that these definitions are concrete and easy for datters to choose from but I see an issue with assuming all digital releases are Homebrew and all physical releases are not. What about the games that have a different digital release? The Magnilo Case for NES was released a couple years ago and would have weird naming:

Physical Version: Magnilo Case, The (Aftermarket).nes
Digital Version: Magnilo Case, The (Homebrew).nes

I know these are few and far between but I think if we're drawing the line as distribution method, we should just use that as the definition. "Aftermarket" assumes it came out after the console lifespan and it was physically released. "Digital" would mean it came out after the lifespan only in digital format. This would be clearer and easy for datters to pick from, in my opinion.

There are many games that were released physically for NES prior to 2018 that were definitely better aligned with the definition of "homebrew".
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Arctic Circle System
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Re: "aftermarket" and "homebrew" at the same time

Post by Arctic Circle System »

NESBrew12 wrote: 04 Oct 2022 13:40 Thanks, @omonim2007. I actually hadn't seen those definitions before.

I like that these definitions are concrete and easy for datters to choose from but I see an issue with assuming all digital releases are Homebrew and all physical releases are not. What about the games that have a different digital release? The Magnilo Case for NES was released a couple years ago and would have weird naming:

Physical Version: Magnilo Case, The (Aftermarket).nes
Digital Version: Magnilo Case, The (Homebrew).nes

I know these are few and far between but I think if we're drawing the line as distribution method, we should just use that as the definition. "Aftermarket" assumes it came out after the console lifespan and it was physically released. "Digital" would mean it came out after the lifespan only in digital format. This would be clearer and easy for datters to pick from, in my opinion.

There are many games that were released physically for NES prior to 2018 that were definitely better aligned with the definition of "homebrew".
There is also the issue of categorizing digitally released demos of physically released games. ~Cherri
Nonstiq
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Re: "aftermarket" and "homebrew" at the same time

Post by Nonstiq »

Personally, I think the problem in defining these numerous and ambiguous terms is just that - there are too many.

Aftermarket : Starting point is relatively easy to define (console/platform release), but end date? When is a console dead?

Homebrew: How do you define who is/isn't a professional? As soon as someone does something for money and/or does this as their main source of income, they are a professional. Are you interviewing every single creator to obtain this information? How many people does it take to go from a a homebrew team to an unlicensed one?

With regards to the digital/physical, this is easy enough to decide for older systems, but you then have to make a subset of rules for more recent platforms, which just muddies it up again. What happens when a digital only homebrew release is made into a physical cart?

If you don't allow "hacked ROMs," how do these differ from some Pirate games out there? Both contain unauthorised use of assets, so how do you allow some but not others?


Honestly, two categories is all you need. Licensed and Unlicensed. These are pretty clear to objectively define.

With these two clear definitions, you can both maintain the original intent of No-Intro and its expanded vision. I see it like someone cataloging all of Rembrandts works, but also maintaining a separate database of all the Rembrandt copies/knock offs etc - some of which have historical relevance, some are just total garbage - but its not up to any one to apply their subjective views as to what has value or not.
Hiccup
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Re: "aftermarket" and "homebrew" at the same time

Post by Hiccup »

Nonstiq wrote: 05 Oct 2022 05:38
Yeah that's true, licensed and unlicensed are one of the only clear cut things really. But I guess maybe "commercial" and "non-commercial" are another?
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Arctic Circle System
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Re: "aftermarket" and "homebrew" at the same time

Post by Arctic Circle System »

Hiccup wrote: 05 Oct 2022 19:00
Nonstiq wrote: 05 Oct 2022 05:38
Yeah that's true, licensed and unlicensed are one of the only clear cut things really. But I guess maybe "commercial" and "non-commercial" are another?
True, though how do we handle software released for free digitally before getting a paid physical release, paid software being released for free later, or versions of software posted to Patreon? ~Cherri
Hiccup
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Re: "aftermarket" and "homebrew" at the same time

Post by Hiccup »

Good question :P
redgoo
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Re: "aftermarket" and "homebrew" at the same time

Post by redgoo »

In terms of definitions, some things are easy to factually determine.

Easy to define:
Physical (Cart) vs Digital - self-evident
Licensed vs Unlicensed - can determine this officially from console manufacturer

Every rom falls into one of those 4 categories and I would agree and argue those are the most important to categorize with on a higher level.

Beyond that, the terms "Homebrew", "Aftermarket", "Pirate", "Hack" etc. are all different subtypes of Unlicensed games. Licensed games have subtypes like "Demo", and "Virtual Console". Prototypes could be either depending on if the game was officially released.

Personally, I also find the current definition of "Aftermarket" to be a bit problematic because of the uncertainty about the date of when the lifespan of the console has ended. You could also make the argument that the end of the lifespan of the console is with the last licensed game released for it.

Commercial vs Non-commercial could be another distinction to make, but it's not as easy to define as Licensed vs Unlicensed. The Unlicensed subtypes "Homebrew" vs "Aftermarket" are basically the same as "Non-Commercial" vs "Commercial" for classification. I would argue paid homebrew is the same as aftermarket. The fact that it costs money means it is no longer homebrew.

In terms of dats, I agree that there should be a separate dat for each type of media. For example with NES, two dats, "Carts" and "Digital". If each title is properly tagged in the dat as licensed vs unlicensed and then with subtypes it will allow rom managers (of the future) to easily filter everything out however each end user prefers.

It's not too much of a concern if someone changes license later on a title as the dat is fluid and the dat can be updated.
PiF32
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Re: "aftermarket" and "homebrew" at the same time

Post by PiF32 »

And I would like to make a suggestion regarding the aftermarket flag.

Maybe it would be a good idea to differentiate "aftermarket" flag from the games "rereleased", translated or not, in official media (Switch, virtual console, Wii, etc).
Games like "River City Girls Zero" from SNES is an example carrying this flag, while other games like Monster World IV (Genesis), EarthBound Beginnings (NES), Trials of Mana (SNES) don't.

"Aftermarket" flag can be a way to differentiate games DEVELOPED (not translated) out of machine life span and the "unl" flag to differentiate if those games are been distributed in official media or not. In this case the "Homebrew" flag could be converted in "Afermarket + unl".

In addition a "rereleased" flag or something like that could be valid to unify all "virtual console, switch, wii U, etc flags.
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