Move PSN PSP PSone Classics to separate datfile

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Hiccup
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Re: Move PSN PSP PSone Classics to separate datfile

Post by Hiccup »

Tbh I don't mind that much. Its not like the name is the only thing that tells you what the dat is. (There's probably a description field that can be filled out in DoM if need be - or something could be put on the wiki)
Sparagas
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Joined: 13 May 2019 05:22

Re: Move PSN PSP PSone Classics to separate datfile

Post by Sparagas »

YES! Finally, PSone classics are in it's separate dat list :)
Tt really was not in place with PSP games.

Not all versions are compatible with all three platforms (PS3, PSP, PSvita),
So I think games, that only work on two or one platforms should have additional info, telling it. Like "Game (PS3 only)".
Or is it too much work, because we need to test all games or look for info online?
Landcross
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Re: Move PSN PSP PSone Classics to separate datfile

Post by Landcross »

Sparagas wrote: 05 May 2020 10:08 YES! Finally, PSone classics are in it's separate dat list :)
Tt really was not in place with PSP games.

Not all versions are compatible with all three platforms (PS3, PSP, PSvita),
So I think games, that only work on two or one platforms should have additional info, telling it. Like "Game (PS3 only)".
Or is it too much work, because we need to test all games or look for info online?
Do you have some definitive source or proof that some games truly don't work on all three platforms? When deciding on splitting the PS1 games from the PSP datfile, one of the reasons was 'they're not just for psp'. But, a few games are marked as PS3-only on the PSN store, but I believe we came to the conclusion that it was either a licensing issue or an emulator issue (it technically works on PSP, but there are some issues, so Sony decided to not make it available on PSP on the store).

As a side-note: we're a bit in doubt what to do with the other '... classics' games. Should PS2 also get a separate datfile? But then what about the other smaller systems? NeoGeo etc? A ton of tiny datfiles is also a bit weird. But then, putting them all together in a big 'PSN Classics' datfile is also a bit weird as some games are playable on ps3/psp/vita and some ps3 only (mainly the PS2 ones). Does anyone have any opinions on this matter?
scyther-grovyle
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Re: Move PSN PSP PSone Classics to separate datfile

Post by scyther-grovyle »

I think from both a usability standpoint and syntactic standpoint, both a Classics dat with tags for systems and many small dats make sense. You can filter by tag, so I would probably prefer to have a single dat.
Landcross
Dumper
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Re: Move PSN PSP PSone Classics to separate datfile

Post by Landcross »

So, that would mean that the following stuff would move to a combined Classics dat:
  • PS1 Classics (from PS1 dat, which came from PSP dat)
  • PS2 Classics (from PS3 dat)
  • PC Engine (from PSP dat)
  • NeoGeo (from PSP dat)
  • TurboGrafx (from PSP dat)
Am I forgetting some?
Sparagas
Posts: 2
Joined: 13 May 2019 05:22

Re: Move PSN PSP PSone Classics to separate datfile

Post by Sparagas »

Landcross wrote: 06 May 2020 07:34 Do you have some definitive source or proof that some games truly don't work on all three platforms?
No, only what you said - that some games on official sites ar marked as PS3 Only. From a logical standpoint, PS1 classics are not exclusive to PSP, but to any official Sony console.
I think the mindset should not be "if some game don't work on PSP, can it be in PSP datfile?" but "if some games run on several platforms should it be on specific console datfile (like PSP), or on its own?"
Landcross wrote: 09 May 2020 09:28 So, that would mean that the following stuff would move to a combined Classics dat:
  • PS1 Classics (from PS1 dat, which came from PSP dat)
  • PS2 Classics (from PS3 dat)
  • PC Engine (from PSP dat)
  • NeoGeo (from PSP dat)
  • TurboGrafx (from PSP dat)
Am I forgetting some?
Hmm what about other classic emulated games on other platforms? Like classic NES games on Nintendo consoles? I have no knowledge how they work. Do they have different versions for every console, or also the same ROMS?

Maybe there should be a new unifying rule on how to dat classic emulated games...?
Because when we move forward with new consoles, classic emulated games list will just increase in time.
scyther-grovyle
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Re: Move PSN PSP PSone Classics to separate datfile

Post by scyther-grovyle »

Obviously there is two things. The executable of the virtual version, which should be included in the dat of the platform it is run on. And then the files from the emulated platform, which should be included in the dat of the original platform. So you will have a .cia of a Vritual Console release in the 3DS dat, but the NES game it emulates, if it's a new revision, would be included in the NES dat.
Same applies for the Classic I guess. If they can be run on both PS3/PSP, make a dat for the "Classic" executables, and then also add the games emulated to the respective dats.
norkmetnoil577
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Re: Move PSN PSP PSone Classics to separate datfile

Post by norkmetnoil577 »

I like the idea of a classics dat, and echo what scyther-grovyle says about it being all about the platform that the software ran on when it was released. If the software we are datting *happens* to emulate an older system, the extracted rom goes into the emulated system dat and the rom+emulator package goes into the system it ran on.

Now I also think we should not need to consider "backwards compatibility": for instance some PS one Classics on PSN store now say triple compatible with Vita, PSP, and PS3? If this happens I think we could argue the platform of origin takes precedence (PS3/PSP era). A criterion could be, does the software include specific code for more than one console (is there PS3-specific code, or does the PS3 just know how to execute PSP software?) If someone can answer that question it may help us.

One way to go is to use Sony's own convention: see the excellent documentation @
https://serialstation.com/serials/guide/

A "Classics" dat would contain all titles with content IDs:
NP*E = PS one Clasics (1st party)
NP*F = PS one Clasics (3rd party) + PC Engine
NP*I = PS one Clasics (1st party) (Asia)
NP*J = PS one Clasics (3rd party) (Asia) + PC Engine
NP*C = PS2 Classics (1st party)
NP*D = PS2 Classics (3rd party)

Something that complicates the "Classics" dat is for instance PS2 Classics: these are different software for PS3 and PS4, different title IDs and presumably different emulators since PS3 has different hardware (some with partial PS2 hardware) from PS4. For instance Bully (PS2 Classics) is NPUD21269 on PS3 and is CUSA03507 on PS4, unlike the PS3/PSP PS one Classics which are the same exact titles. So in this format the PS3 version would go into the "Classics" dat but the PS4 version would go into the PS4 dat (or, if more emulated software are added to PS4.

Also NeoGeo Station games (tag NG) do belong separately in PS3 and PSP dats because they were released separately for each console (https://blog.eu.playstation.com/2010/12 ... n-network/) - for instance look up Alpha Mission II (USA) (NG) in each DAT - different filenames/sizes and NPUH10060 for PSP (straight up PSP PSN) and NPUB30263 for PS3 (straight up PS3 PSN).

For TurboGrafx 16 = (TGX) tag is just the American name for PC Engine (Europe/Japan) = (PCE) so these point to the same games. According to the above list though they are considered by Sony serial scheme to be grouped with the PS one classics in a way that is ambiguous as to whether they are PSP or PS3 games.

So all that is to say, from that list, I think PS one Classics do deserve to be put apart, but after thinking about it more the other ones from Landcross's list do not because from what I can tell they can be fit into console-specific releases. The only other good candidate are the PC Engine/TurboGrafx games [ although they are not marketed as "Classics"] and possibly the PS2 Classics that run on the PS3 only; so the dat would have to be called something else like Sony - PlayStation 3 & Portable (PSN) or something...

Now for the record the PSP Minis also are cross-compatible with PS3 and PSTV (NP*X and NP*Z; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_PlayStation_minis) but we can maybe invoke the criterion of first release, and I think it was PSP first.

Thoughts? :D
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