betas and demos

General No-Intro related discussions.
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root
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betas and demos

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Rif: 223 betas and demos \ Maroon on 19th January 2005, 07:09 wrote:

OK, the numbers are gone from the main GBA dat, which is fine, but the news didn't mention that 33 beta and demo roms were also added. What are the reasons for including those?

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/ gartlan on 19-Jan-2005 07:37 wrote:

Yes I agree....why...??
and while its all very well to get rid of the release numbers see how far you get making sense of most of the posts in this forum...which often only mention the release by number!
A warning would have been appreciated (so I could have grabbed a numbered Dat before they became history) and from now on people in this forum are going to have to refer to the rom by name...well the name the rom last had before the rename...now how many renames was that now...
I don't think its going to work guys!

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/ NGEfreak on 19-Jan-2005 08:31 wrote:
OK, the numbers are gone from the main GBA dat, which is fine, but the news didn't mention that 33 beta and demo roms were also added. What are the reasons for including those?
All other dats include beta and sample roms. So, why shouldn't they be in the GBA dat too?
A warning would have been appreciated (so I could have grabbed a numbered Dat before they became history) and from now on people in this forum are going to have to refer to the rom by name...well the name the rom last had before the rename...now how many renames was that now...
Now people don't need to have a look at the release list anymore to know which number is which game. It's much better to refer by name in the first place and not indirectly with numbers.

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/ xuom2 on 19-Jan-2005 13:17 wrote:
A warning would have been appreciated (so I could have grabbed a numbered Dat before they became history)
true. it was a bit too radical. something was changed again to remain popular.
about betas, they are interesting files.

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/ kyopzq on 19-Jan-2005 16:39 wrote:

JUST AN ADVICE!
Why not get rid of all those loaders, softwares, demos,betas,UNLs.
Why not build a pure official realeaseing Games dat!

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/ Dumper on 19-Jan-2005 18:31 wrote:

We also have plans to remove the numbering at ADVANsCEne :)
But i think we will have one dat with only "Game Cartridges" like we have now and one dat that includes more entries.

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/ bigmax on 19-Jan-2005 21:15 wrote:

Why is this in the dat?
Boktai - The Sun is in your Hand (J) (Tr) (Beta) (Cracked)

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/ remoteneeded on 19-Jan-2005 22:01 wrote:

Whilst games are still being released it is very useful to have some kind of numbering system, and the PH system is the one that most peole use. It's certainly helps in tracking them down as well as finding things like IPS files. I also like knowing what order the games were realeased in as you can then see the development history of GBA software.
PH has now got us all rattled becase they seem to be acting all high-and-mightly and turning their backs on the larger scene. So what to do?
Here's a thought. Why not stick to the PH numbering system, but if a rom falls outside of this, yet is a proper release in the eyes of everyone, then number it 9001, 9002, etc. Not a perfect solution, but an easy to implement one.

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/ zzffrree on 19-Jan-2005 23:12 wrote:

i don't agree with the end of numbering system.
it's like hammering your hands.
If this numbering system it's old and useless change to another, re-number the roms.
For example with official release date Year-month-day "YYMMDD".
Numbers are a great method to classify roms, every time you need to mention a game, to release a patch, to search for help, to talk about a rom...
thanks and go on, all of you are great!
bye

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/ MIK0 on 19-Jan-2005 23:20 wrote:
i don't agree with the end of numbering system.
it's like hammering your hands.
If this numbering system it's old and useless change to another, re-number the roms.
For example with official release date Year-month-day "YYMMDD".
Numbers are a great method to classify roms, every time you need to mention a game, to release a patch, to search for help, to talk about a rom...
thanks and go on, all of you are great!
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/ raual36 on 20-Jan-2005 02:53 wrote:

O.K. here's my two cents - now my forntend doesn't work: cause all the snaps and intro screens, not to mention the boxarts are all numbered, I don't mean with the release name but just the release number, within each directory (snaps, boxarts, etc.)
Help me out here and I will gladly follow, as I have since the day I found out
about the No-Intro Project. that is all.

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/ xuom2 on 20-Jan-2005 06:59 wrote:

please note that the PH NUMBERED DAT is still available to download and will be updated. check out the "download dats" page.
simply, the UNNUMBERED is now a real pure dat, that will replace the numbered when the latest official gba will be out.

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/ lessram on 20-Jan-2005 13:08 wrote:

Just my opinion;
I agree with removing the numbering; this way making it possible to included games that aren't in the PH numbering system, and to get of the crack and none-official games to get a pure DAT.....
But it all has it's pro's and cons.
A big con is brought as a pro and that's not fair;
people don't have to look in the front-end program to check the number of a specific game
This ain't a pro because people will still look in the front-end program to check what the complete game title is... too many games are basically tiotled the same so you still have to check the exact title. And remembering a complete title is way harder then remembering a 4-digit number.
A big pro is that we finally get a clean DAT.... but immediatly starting from new-DAT nr1 there's already a smudge on the DAT.....
BETA's are suddenly included
This doesn't make it a clean DAT anymore.... I.e. what happens when one of the game writers suddenly sends 20 beta versions of one game to the scene..... it becomes a mess with a lot of ininteresting trashy betas.

A clean DAT is IMMO;

A DAT filled with ALL AND ONLY gamecards that were sold officially through shops, with addition of promo games ALL licenced by Nintendo.

So infact I am hoping for a DAT as what the person from ADVANSCENE also was referring to.

Greetings
LessRam

PS: Why not simply use OfflineList; with the same DAT-file it can use numbered and not-numbered titles. Within seconds you switch between the options.

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/ bigfred on 20-Jan-2005 13:36 wrote:
BETA's are suddenly included - This doesn't make it a clean DAT anymore
Betas are included in all other dats. Betas/Protos sometimes allow a VERY interesting view on a game as they have features the final game doesn't have. One example: Mega Man 3 NES: In the beta there's a cheat available which lets you jump incredibly high. Other games had different graphics in their beta-state etc..
I.e. what happens when one of the game writers suddenly sends 20 beta versions of one game to the scene
I know what you mean, but in reality this doesn't happen. Betas are rare finds.
ALL licenced by Nintendo.
Once I thought like this but I changed my mind. It would mean to exclude for instance the famous Tengen-Tetris from the NES-dat which has a place in videogame-history and is said to be one of the best Tetris-versions ever.

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/ badzou on 20-Jan-2005 20:46 wrote:

well this isn't the first time I ask myself whether the beta are welcome on a clean dat or not. The reason is: is there any point in preserving a beta of a game having a full version? the answer isn't that simple.

I think beta are worth preserving only if the game was never finished or if something important was censored on the final version... in the other cases I really see no point...

I'd like to know everyone opinion on the matter

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/ lessram on 20-Jan-2005 22:50 wrote:

Whether they are interesting or not, doesn't matter (IMHO!!!).

A clean DAT should be CLEAN, so no Beta versions. A beta hasn't been released (otherwise it wouldn't be a beta) so "out of the DAT". Make an alternative DAT for Beta's, cracked or whatever. But not in a cleam DAT. A clean DAT should excists out of only released and licenced by Nintendo games. Even if they don't work on emulators or flashcards.

Released and licenced by Nintendo (even if it is as a promotional item for a movie or with a Happy Meal by McDonalds) ? In the DAT, if not...."Get Off!"

As said; pure my opinion.

Other DATs are nice too, but in my favor are just two DATs; a clean DAT (hopefully the No-Intro one, but whatever it will be; I will use it) and a complete DAT like Goodgbx) all other DATs are for me loosers. (though a cracked DAT, a beta DAT are in the grey zone, but should be seperate DATs)

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/ MadBob on 20-Jan-2005 23:10 wrote:

Yeah keep the numbering it's madness to remove it :) or at least keep the numbering in the OL dat then It can be hidden if not wanted. that's what I did with the GB Mono dat (which BTW you still mention me as doing even though you no longer host it) :P

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/ Dopefish on 21-Jan-2005 08:58 wrote:

I totally agree to lessram. Now that we have gotten rid of the numbers we should finally make a real clean DAT without any demos, betas, promos and pirate carts. It only makes sense to add such dumps if a final version was never released, for example "Fruit Chase".

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/ NGEfreak on 21-Jan-2005 09:32 wrote:

No, just don't collect roms with the flag (Beta) and/or (Unl). So what's the problem?

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/ pandylib on 21-Jan-2005 12:53 wrote:

Why are not these in data?
Castlevania (E) (Beta)
Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell - Pandora Tomorrow (E) (M6) (Beta)
and Power Pro Kun Pocket 5 (J) (Promo) is included in data, will you include these in data?
Power Pro Kun Pocket 1 - 2 (J) (Promo) 46493fa1
Power Pro Kun Pocket 6 (J) (Promo) 023a9a75

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/ bigfred on 21-Jan-2005 13:00 wrote:

Mame has protos in it too even if a final version is available so what? A lot of these betas were send out for testing purposes and therefore are official carts, not commercial but official. Why must a cart be commercial to be included?
Demos are expensive and rare finds on ebay for instance. Why do you want to exclude official demos which have a high value to collectors from a dat? They are something like a holy grail.
And unlicensed software: The Tengen-games in the NES-dat could be purchased in shops like every other game. You can find them on ebay and fleamarket everywhere. They have a place in VG-history like all other games. I once thought too an unl game shouldn't go in a dat but that's just wrong. Even if a game is unlicensed it is still a game poeple play and enjoy. The developers worked hard for it and made an enrichment to the vg-history. Is this not the purpose of emulation - to save games? Why do games need to be licensed to be worth preserving? Pirate carts which are nothing but hacks of foreign work are a different story.
Power Pro Kun Pocket 1 - 2 (J) (Promo) 46493fa1
Power Pro Kun Pocket 6 (J) (Promo) 023a9a75
If you can assure us they are indeed promos and not hacks, they will surely be included. It would make sense if these are indeed promos. I also mentioned the Splinter Cell-rom in my other thread together with a few others.

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/ pandylib on 21-Jan-2005 13:21 wrote:
If you can assure us they are indeed promos and not hacks, they will surely be included.
is Power Pro Kun Pocket 5 (J) (Promo) indeed promos and not hacks ?

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/ bigfred on 21-Jan-2005 13:38 wrote:

yes

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/ NGEfreak on 21-Jan-2005 13:53 wrote:
Castlevania (E) (Beta)
Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell - Pandora Tomorrow (E) (M6) (Beta)
Castlevania is a rip (intro sequence) from the full rom.
Splinter Cell is just a header hack.
and Power Pro Kun Pocket 5 (J) (Promo) is included in data, will you include these in data?
Power Pro Kun Pocket 1 - 2 (J) (Promo) 46493fa1
Power Pro Kun Pocket 6 (J) (Promo) 023a9a75
If you can assure us they are indeed promos and not hacks, they will surely be included. It would make sense if these are indeed promos.
Well, PPKP2 is locked (literally!). I don't think that a hacker would make a change like this.

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/ pandylib on 21-Jan-2005 13:59 wrote:

oh, I see.
thanks bigfred and NGEfreak !

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/ bigfred on 21-Jan-2005 14:35 wrote:
Well, PPKP2 is locked (literally!). I don't think that a hacker would make a change like this.
So we should include these 2 as promos then.
Splinter Cell is just a header hack.
The strange thing is that the US-release has the exact same internal name as the "header hacked" EURO-rom. Maybe there were 2 alternate internal names used for some funny reason?

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/ Lukeage on 22-Jan-2005 01:26 wrote:
The other main datters have known for a while that I've supported the push towards a completely non-numbered system and I'm glad its finally arrived.

Just to go over some of the comments that have been made in this thread; referring to roms by number has always bugged me. Whenever someone comes asks me about release xxxx, I honestly have no idea as to which rom you are referring to and always have to go look it up. Given no other dats here have numbering and that we seem to be managing fine with them (yes they aren't updated as frequently, but still) I don't see what the issue is here.

Secondly is the point about a 'pure official release list'. As far as I'm concerned any roms that get dumped and are accepted by OUR rules as clean and commercially produced etc.. should be in the dat. It doesn't matter what any other groups say, its a no-intro dat and its up to us on what goes into it.

I realise that this does upset people but as is mentioned, at some point you're gonna have to cut the cord anyway and drop the numbers.

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/ lessram on 22-Jan-2005 10:40 wrote:
Referring to roms by number has always bugged me. Whenever someone comes asks me about release xxxx, I honestly have no idea as to which rom you are referring to and always have to go look it up.
If someone asks me whether I have GBA 1254, without doubt I can say "yes".....

If someone asks whether I have "GTA - Great Tournement [v1.2]" I don't have the answer and have to look first.
Secondly is the point about a 'pure official release list'. As far as I'm concerned any roms that get dumped and are accept?by OUR rules as clean and commercially produced etc.. should be in the dat. It doesn't matter what any other groups say, its a no-intro dat and its up to us on what goes into it.
Yes but it's the same "us" that are discussing the question what should be included or not. :s
I realise that this does upset people but as is mentioned, at some point you're gonna have to cut the cord anyway and drop the numbers.
I know, but all decisions together make it a contradiction to me. This is probably indeed a decision which has to be made, inavoidable, but it also means that different opinions will cause group members to leave and new group members to join the group. In the end it has been a good thing when the group has gotten bigger then before.

Personally I'll stay and probably will find my concensus (numbering ain't the biggest issue to me). But if Advanscene starts a clean DAT without intros and pure commercial games I surely will use that DAT.

But when 1 quitting person results in 10 new joiners the decision to make the change was a good one.

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/ bigfred on 22-Jan-2005 12:56 wrote:

Ok here the answer for Connie:
Tell me guys, did you all go out on the piss one night, bang all of your heads and then decide to 're-write' 'No-Intro'?
It was always planned to do a "real" nointro-dat when the releases become slow or stop entirely. I thought that this was clear to everyone ? :? Nointro only followed the numbering to make it easier collecting roms as long as they are still being released regularly.

The decision to suddenly drop the numbers was xuom's I think and it was a bit rushed of course and was due to PH not numbering the Hot Mario-dump. But he soon realized this was too sudden and continues supporting the numbered dat for now. So there shouldn't be any problem here. Btw: Even #gbatemp doesn't use numbers anymore because they think they suck ;)
the word 'Cracked' appears in the GBA DAT,
If you have read my additions-thread you realize I disagree and think it was just a mistake.

My final words about the whole beta + demo discussion: Seems we don't find any consensus here. A dat with beta, demo etc included was always planned and all other dats are like this. Why are there no complains about betas in GBC or N64 for instance? And if you look around other dat-projects almost all include these dumps. See smschecker/Meka, see NSRT, see Mame and so on and I don't see any problem. You call is good-dat? We don't have hacks, overdumped, bad, fixed, fanhacks, translations or PD in the dats. Betas were officially developed and are rare in reality in contrary to the unofficial roms mentioned above of which eveyone can produce 100s whithin few hours and that were never available on a real cart or planned to be. This is the big difference.

However, there's an easy solution for the problem and this is 2 dats.

1) Commercial licensed dat (no beta, unl, hardware, demos etc)
2) "Complete" dat (like all other dats)

Your opinion?

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/ remoteneeded on 23-Jan-2005 13:48 wrote:

I can understand Connie's frustrations. Maybe it's an age thing as I too am 35, although I've been playing computer games for a little longer - fifteen years longer to be precise! Yep, my first time was dialing into a mainframe, using an acoustically-coupled modem, and a teletype, some 30 years ago! The game - Star Trek. I also witnessed my first computer 'hacking' that day when an unwanted message appeared on the paper roll. Ah memories... anyway I digress

No-intro to me means just that. There are plenty of other lists out there that include everything else, Goodsets being arguably the best. I agree that PH have been a little silly not including the last Mario as for my money it is a pucker release, but our beef whould be with them and not with each other. No-intro has grown into a great community, so let's keep going towards a common goal of creating a unique and useful DATs.

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/ lessram on 23-Jan-2005 15:25 wrote:

It ain't a age thing. I'm 36.....

It's a matter of evolution. Things grow and change when they're alive. And for sure the No-Intro group and DAT are alive and kicking.

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/ lessram on 23-Jan-2005 23:09 wrote:

I changed to the new DAT's (Main + Additionals) one of the pro things is;
Very quiet on the server ;)
Most leechers prefer numbering, that's for sure.

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/ SothoTalKer on 07-Feb-2005 13:48 wrote:

Switch over to a Tosec-Style Naming Convention ;)
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