Reguarding Dump Information on No-Intro

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DeadSkullzJr
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Joined: 14 May 2018 06:07

Reguarding Dump Information on No-Intro

Post by DeadSkullzJr » 05 Apr 2020 16:58

Hello everyone, took me a while to make a post like this, I keep forgetting I have access to this forum, that and life doesn't play nice all the time lol. Moving on though, something has been sort of bugging me a bit, while to some it's a small issue, to me it's pretty big considering how things are currently handled via No-Intro/Dat-o-Matic and the really crummy future we get to face by force.

I read the story of how No-Intro came to be, started out of practically nothing with just a few GBA dumps with intros (I already figured that was the case considering I was around when stuff like game dumps had intros and what not at the time, clean dumps were practically rare in many cases). To summarize, this place is a place to preserve information about various titles we manage to get our hands on. I then thought some more about the concepts that people seem to live by now when it comes to preserving data/information related to the various amounts of content we end up getting over the years. I wasn't a datter when this all first started, but I have at least been here long enough to know how things are being done. Within the time that I have been here I have uploaded information about various pieces of content that I have managed to get my hands on (still have a lot to post about). During the process something has been nagging at me greatly with the way things are handled. I have noticed quite a few things being mislabeled, removed, or flat out left out entirely. One of the key reasons behind this is due to what we go off of in terms of information. It has come to my attention that apparently these titles and revisions are mostly based on cartridge shell information rather than the dump information itself. I always thought No-Intro was about preserving dump information among other bits and pieces related to the matter (in an accurate or near accurate manner might I add).

Not long ago I uploaded some dump information for a few games that I managed to get dumped, some time recently the dump information was changed a bit by another datter (mainly the title of the actual dump). The revision of the title was removed with a comment claiming that a revision of the game never existed and that the dump itself just had an identifier, that 50% of the time the data there meant nothing, by all means, I have nothing against the datter that did that, nor any datter for that matter. I kind of got fed up however with all these ridiculous changes because my data was literally off of the dump information itself (considering this happened to some of my other dump information before on more than one occasion, along with other dumps I have seen over time getting changes they shouldn't have gotten), so I asked someone to help me gather up as many datters as they could on Discord at least so I could discuss the manner with other fellow datters. Turned out only one was there and I already knew him, so I discussed this matter with that datter (won't name the person, not the type who likes throwing people under the bus), he's known pretty well around these parts however, but that's all I will say at least, moving on, I questioning the whole process of relying on information on a cartridge shell versus the information of the game dumps themselves. That's NOT to say we shouldn't rely on cartridge information at all, but the fact that we use that information as the main guts of dump integrity seems like an inaccurate concept to live by. I showed and gave evidence to my claims using a game series as an example that I have recently been heavily digging into for research and information about the data, the Sonic the Hedgehog series for the SEGA Mega Drive/Genesis. In particular Sonic the Hedgehog became the example I used since that has been a great deal in my research currently. I dug down to the disassembly of the game to get all that I needed to know out of it. However, let's take a look at two instances of two game dumps released and documented on Dat-o-Matic for a few seconds.

THE DUMPS PRESENTED BELOW ARE EXAMPLE CASES FOR MY EVIDENCE, THIS ISN'T JUST FOR THIS GAME SPECIFICALLY!!!

Sonic the Hedgehog (USA, Europe):
https://datomatic.no-intro.org/?page=sh ... =32&n=1231

Sonic the Hedgehog (Japan, Korea):
https://datomatic.no-intro.org/?page=sh ... =32&n=1230

Both of these are the same game obviously, however right off the bat one would assume that there were two different versions of the same game in two different regions, that's very true when looking at it at point blank view, and with all the cartridge images for both, it's easily supporting that fact, HOWEVER we need to do more extensive looks into these because these aren't all they seem to be. First off, Sonic the Hedgehog "(Japan, Korea)" is actually in English, not Japanese or Korean, the cartridge was yes covered in Japanese/Korean text respectively, the game dumps themselves told a different story however. Looking into the dump itself, the region actually is "JUE" or "World" as most of us call it (generally an international release indicator) just like the "USA, Europe" dump, it also says the dump is revision one (Rev 1 or Rev A, all the same thing), though true revision information was posted (yet it wasn't labeled in the title accordingly just because the cartridge didn't say so). Now let's look into the dump I mentioned about earlier:

"Sonic the Hedgehog (World) (Sonic Classic Collection)" dumped from a USA copy of Sonic Classic Collection: (I titled this as Sonic the Hedgehog (World) (Rev A) (Sonic Classic Collection))
https://datomatic.no-intro.org/?page=sh ... =32&n=2453

Take a look at this dump and compare it with the "Japan, Korea" release. It's plain as day obvious Sonic Classic Collection used this version of the game as Sonic the Hedgehog (the ID is 00004049-01 when viewed in a hex editor, 01 being the revision), I posted a link to the datter I was talking to show him that a revision one does exist, that the statement towards the data was wrong:
https://info.sonicretro.org/Sonic_the_Hedgehog_(16-bit)

That link is huge evidence about the changes between the versions of the games, so that instantly tosses out any statement that the information is useless and what not. Then there is the huge indicator that sets it all out:

"Shortly after the original release of the game (known as REV00), Sega reissued the game (REV01) with various enhancements, bug-fixes and general tweaks. REV01 added extra layers of scrolling to most parallax backgrounds where many had been flat before, added moving clouds (Green Hill Zone), rippling water (Labyrinth Zone), corrected the level select screen's arrangement, among other minor changes. REV01 is most commonly found on Japanese cartridges, where the game was released slightly later than in Europe and North America, and was also made available in later production runs internationally."

To be more specific, this line here:
"...REV01 is most commonly found on Japanese cartridges, where the game was released slightly later than in Europe and North America, and was also made available in later production runs internationally."


I was told then this isn't a reliable source, in quote "That quoted information is unsourced", and that "Sonic Classic Collection is a DS game containing a ROM file". Alright I can bite with that, let's take a look at another source.

SEGA Mega Drive and Genesis Classics (Steam):
https://store.steampowered.com/app/3427 ... _Classics/

Someone had this game on Steam and dumped the ROM out of it, the end result:
Region: Europe
Date: 2018-09-05
Dumper: ClaudeSpeed
Affiliation: No-Intro
Datter: omonim2007
Format: Default
File:
Sonic the Hedgehog (Japan, Korea).md
Size: 524288
CRC32: AFE05EEE [selected]
MD5: 09DADB5071EB35050067A32462E39C5F
SHA-1: 69E102855D4389C3FD1A8F3DC7D193F8EEE5FE5B
Serial:

00004049-01

Comment 1:
Sega Mega Drive Classics (Steam)


Region: USA
Date: 2018-09-05
Dumper: ClaudeSpeed
Affiliation: No-Intro
Datter: omonim2007
Format: Default
File:
Sonic the Hedgehog (Japan, Korea).md
Size: 524288
CRC32: AFE05EEE [selected]
MD5: 09DADB5071EB35050067A32462E39C5F
SHA-1: 69E102855D4389C3FD1A8F3DC7D193F8EEE5FE5B
Serial:

00004049-01

Comment 1:
Sega Mega Drive Classics (Steam)


The Europe AND USA dump is the Japan and Korea dump??? Hmmmmm. Could this be coincidence, maybe??

Unfortunately I can't provide any dump information about these dumps, however I have looked at the M2 ports of Sonic the Hedgehog for the Nintendo 3DS, I can definitely confirm that the base of the port was in fact the "Japan, Korea" version (again using the 00004049-01 version, aka the revision one and "Japan, Korea" version, the way they ported the game was done in a manner that isn't simple to just rip, they did a legit and proper port, however the information regarding the header of the dump was at least intact). You can view the information yourself via debugging and what not with these dumps:

SEGA 3D Classics Collection (USA)
https://datomatic.no-intro.org/index.ph ... =64&n=1489

Or you can directly use the standalone port (exact same M2 port, I checked for myself):
https://datomatic.no-intro.org/index.ph ... =79&n=0132

This isn't coincidence, this isn't carelessness, this is intentional. If I had more ports in hand to prove my point then I would point you to it, but do the digging yourself and you'll know for certain.

It's evident that the "Japan, Korea" version was released internationally. As a side note, I was also told that versions of the game outside the premises of the original cartridge doesn't count, this includes digital forms of the game. I find this to be an illogical statement considering how our future is going to be (sadly physical media is being replaced by digital.....I personally hate this concept). Using this logic, that would mean that every version out there was carelessly released/handled by every company releasing multiple ports of their games. These dumps should be relabeled as "World" and have the revision number accordingly.


Here is another case of a game that had the removed revision number because of what the cartridge shell says:

Dump Info: (title shows no indication of a revision)
https://datomatic.no-intro.org/?page=sh ... =28&n=4840

Image showing the back that claims revision 0:
https://datomatic.no-intro.org/sources% ... a_back.jpg

Yet you chuck the game into a hex editor and look at the appropriate location for the build revision (or use tools), you are met with "0D" (hex) aka revision 13 (dec). I know developers add silly comments and edits to their work, but I have high doubts they would type something stupid in place of their revision number. Mind you the game used to have "Rev 13" in the title, but was changed by yet again according to cartridge shell information.

The point is, we shouldn't be putting cartridge shell information as the main information (revision, etc) considering that isn't the dump itself, we should be getting the info from the actual dump, that's where the real build numbers and what not are present. Cartridge shell information is nice for the basics/sidelines, but not as main guts for the dump.

If it seems like I jumped around a bit, I am sorry. It's 8:56AM at the time this is typed out, I haven't slept yet, and I am trying to make sure this makes sense for everyone to understand my point.



Last thing, I was told that the cartridges were the history of the game dump(s), the true origins. I have to say this is completely false, the true origin is the first idea that brought this title into existence, followed up with the concepts, artwork, etc. even more followed up with the alphas, betas, demos, etc. The retail builds are the stepping stones to make or break a potential series considering it's out there to the general public to judge, but the origins had many different paths to many different futures, we just so happen to get one of many futures, aka the version of the game we got.

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RetroGamer
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Re: Reguarding Dump Information on No-Intro

Post by RetroGamer » 05 Apr 2020 23:56

Regarding the Sonic, the Hedgehog for Mega Drive i made a post some months ago (now i can´t find that post) stating that i found japanese roms (MPR-13933) in many european carts so it's obvious that the revised game was released in Europe wich means that the region of this entry https://datomatic.no-intro.org/?page=sh ... =32&n=1230 should be changed...

omonim2007
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Re: Reguarding Dump Information on No-Intro

Post by omonim2007 » 06 Apr 2020 19:11

RetroGamer wrote:
05 Apr 2020 23:56
Regarding the Sonic, the Hedgehog for Mega Drive i made a post some months ago (now i can´t find that post) stating that i found japanese roms (MPR-13933) in many european carts so it's obvious that the revised game was released in Europe wich means that the region of this entry https://datomatic.no-intro.org/?page=sh ... =32&n=1230 should be changed...
Can you find out that European cart(s) once again?

I'm not against the fact that we can change region determination for that ROM, but...
But I need to see some real fact first.

After the US/EU dump appear I immediately move myself to do changes in SMD dat.

DeadSkullzJr, thank you for so "reach" post ))
As I sad I will make changes to the database with great pleasure, but first I need compelling evidence.

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RetroGamer
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Re: Reguarding Dump Information on No-Intro

Post by RetroGamer » 06 Apr 2020 19:48

Here is aphoto that i took back then...
If i recall well, i found Sonic 1 carts for european Mega Drive made in Japan, China, Taiwan, Singapure and some more but i only found the MPR-13933 ROM chip in some carts that were made in Malaysia...
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RetroGamer
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Re: Reguarding Dump Information on No-Intro

Post by RetroGamer » 06 Apr 2020 23:42

I checked some of my duplicates and i found another cart with a MPR-13933 ROM chip, this time a cart "MADE IN JAPAN".
My guess it's that those cases were shipped later as a reprint...
So i think it's proved that this revision was available in european carts. I had to open around 30 carts to find this ROM so they are uncommon but they are out there...
I don't know if this was released in USA because i only have 4 or 5 Sonic carts for Genesis.

Please note that i haven't dumped those carts. I have no way of dumping MD carts.
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