GC in NES .dat - trouble in paradise

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root
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GC in NES .dat - trouble in paradise

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Rif: 280 GC in NES .dat - trouble in paradise \ eeemale on 15th August 2005, 06:45 wrote:

I was just going through my NES collection (it's about time someone updated that .dat!) when I came across an issue in the current WIP. This issue may have been already addressed but I will ask anyway.

Some games are marked "(Gamecube)" meaning they were ripped from the GC version of the game (e.g. Zelda and Zelda II ripped from the Zelda Collectors Edition). I believe these should be left out of the NES .dat. My reasons are:

1.There have not been any new licensed NES games in over 10 years (NES production is complete).

2.There is no way one can physically insert a GC disk into a NES console and play the game.

3.These versions of the game appeared on a totally different system.

4.These versions of the game are "rips" from another game and not the actual game themselves.

It doesn't mater if the Zelda on the Collector's Edition is the same version as the NES rom. The whole Zelda Collector's Edition disk should be added to a GC .dat sometime in the future. If this stays the way that it is, then what are you going to do when the Revolution hits the scene with it's own emulated games?

? :?

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/ eeemale on 22-Aug-2005 05:57 wrote:

Well, it's been about a week since I posted my question above and no one has commented or given me an answer. I will therefore assume that all the ROMs marked "(Gamecube)" will be removed from the next NES .dat (isn't that right SolidSnake & BigFred?). Thanks for listening.

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/ xuom2 on 22-Aug-2005 07:23 wrote:

it's summer time.. :)

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/ SolidSnake on 22-Aug-2005 23:01 wrote:

No. I don't remove the dumps :)

Collect them or not! You don't need to collect all of our dats! Ignore me or hate me!

But why ?

1.There have not been any new licensed NES games in over 10 years (NES production is complete).

= No. Look at the main screen. For example Zelda 1. You see something? Ahh new license date !

2.There is no way one can physically insert a GC disk into a NES console and play the game.

= You don't need a Gamecube to playing this dump. You can play it on original hardware.

3.These versions of the game appeared on a totally different system.

= No. Is a special designed version to work correctly for emulation on other systems. But you can use it without any problems on the original hardware. Try it!

4.These versions of the game are "rips" from another game and not the actual game themselves.

= Yep. But is a correctly full dumps :) Have you checked NGEfreaks SNES dat? You see PSX rips and a lot of other stuff. Or bigfreds Sega dats ? The Megadrive dumps for a Master System ? Or Gigadeaths dat?

We will never remove them! Forget it.

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/ eeemale on 24-Aug-2005 19:44 wrote:

Whoa there SolidSnake, take a chill pill, man! First, thanks for responding. I still have a few questions, though.

Are there any plans by the No-Intro community to make a GC .dat? Is the No-Intro Project just limited to "cart" based games, and not "disc" based? Is that why there are no Dreamcast, PSX, PS2, XB, or other "disc" based .dats out.

From your response above, it would seem like the No-Intro Project is more interested in a collection of PLAYABLE games for the NES, instead of creating a list of games that were made SPECIFICALLY for the NES.

You know, my friend was playing DOOM 3 the other day and he walked up to a computer terminal and launched a "chicken fighter" mini game. Maybe you could rip that and put it into the NES .dat(it looks like it would run on NES hardware)? Also, there are a few "NES-type" arcade mini games in Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas. They look NES compatable and worth ripping to me (make sure you put those in the next .dat too)!

The previous paragraph was done in sarcasim, but to prove a point - "Where does it end?" Are you going to spend the rest of your .dat making life chasing after ghosts (like the NES Revolution roms)? Or are you going to grab the ones that actually do exist (like the ones made in the 80's and early 90's)? I believe you're wasting your time (and mine) collecting "rip" dumps (it kind of defeats the purpose of "pure"). If anything, you sould create a new .dat with these alone. As for me, they'll stay out of my collection. "Ignore me or hate me!"

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/ Lukeage on 25-Aug-2005 16:43 wrote:

I really tired of seeing people complain about betas/rips/etc... being in dats. If you don't want them don't collect them. All of these are flagged and can easily be filtered out. No point in having seperate dats for every little detail that differs between roms cause its just a pain in the arse for those who do want a collection of everything.

Your analogy is completely flawed by the fact aren't even mentioning actual NES roms. If there were NES games in other systems, I'd be all for getting them in the dat.

As for where it ends, why is this an issue? If they keep putting these things out for the next 100 years then for the keen collector they will keep with it. Is the issue here really that there could be lots of roms or is it the fact that you just want to have a complete collection and not have to worry about keeping it up to date?

"I believe you're wasting your time (and mine)"

I'm sorry, how many dats have you put out? How much are you paying solid to produce these dats for you? No one is forcing you to use these FREE dats and no one is saying you have to keep using them.

Bitching aside, to answer your question about No-Intros goals, No-intros main focus (atleast how I feel) is to produce dats that contain a complete set of pure (read: non-hacked/modified/tampered/pirated/homebrew) roms which were programmed to run on a certain hardware platform. Now one could argue that the nes in gc were designed to run on gc, but this isn't the case as the roms are emulated (ie they are still designed to run on nes hardware) and are not ported.

The reason that we only have cart based dats at the moment is because of a few reasons. Firstly, producing a perfect image of a disc based game isn't an easy task. If you look around you'll find dats on other sites for some disc based systems and they are related to the TOC of the disc rather than the entire image itself. This is because 2 reads of a disc may produce different results. Perhaps no intro could take this on but so far no one has proposed anything of the sort or is working on a dat. Secondly, these collections take up very large amounts of space (imagine a PS2 or XBox collections size) and hence getting hold of these images to verify they are correct is a large hassle.

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/ SolidSnake on 25-Aug-2005 17:59 wrote:

Thx Luke!

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/ badzou on 26-Aug-2005 20:33 wrote:

eeemale is right

extracted roms are fake and must be removed from the no-intro dats therefore

besides they are worthless dupes of dupes... :s

there are two kind of extracted roms:

(1) extracted from arcade pcbs
(2) extracted from isos

(1) are already preserved in the MAME set, they are not meant for the original hardware (the arcade hardware is often a slightly modified version of the home system) so adding them to the home system dat will neither help preserve the game nor the capabilities of the original hardware...
(2) are digitalized dupes and easy to preserve, think it up there's no use of remaking a dupe of a dupe, this is nonesense...

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/ eeemale on 27-Aug-2005 05:11 wrote:

Thank you, badzou! I'm glad someone else sees my point!

"I really tired of seeing people complain about betas/rips/etc... being in dats."

I am not a "complainer". All of the points I bring up are to make the .dats better and more accurate (don't tell me you can't handle a little healty debate). At least I got a chance to express my opinion and get a response in return. You guys will eventually do whatever you want, anyway.

"Have you checked NGEfreaks SNES dat? You see PSX rips and a lot of other stuff. Or bigfreds Sega dats ? The Megadrive dumps for a Master System ? Or Gigadeaths dat?"

If you guys do chose to drop the "rips" from the NES .dat, then why stop there? Let's make a change accross the board! Drop 'em all!

"I'm sorry, how many dats have you put out? How much are you paying solid to produce these dats for you? No one is forcing you to use these FREE dats and no one is saying you have to keep using them."

As "leaders" in the .dat community, you guys do have a responsibility to the people who download your work (why else would you make your .dats public). Just because I have not produced any .dats myself does not mean I don't have a right to critique. As it stands now, the No-Intro .dat is miles above that "GoodCrap" .dat. It's the best solution on the planet for me, and I will stick with it (flaws and all).

Thus endth my case (I will shut up now).

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/ Uomodelgas on 27-Aug-2005 11:02 wrote:

so... if yu added Gc gemes,why don't you add Famicom Mini series????

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/ bigfred on 27-Aug-2005 11:37 wrote:

I'm fascinated that we always need several threads for one matter :P

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/ SolidSnake on 27-Aug-2005 15:42 wrote:

@Uomodelgas: Famicom Mini Series? Is this for N64? Or can this played on NES Hardware? No!

I'm don't understand what you mean?!

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/ badzou on 28-Aug-2005 18:15 wrote:

of course gba famicom mini games can be extracted and hacked to run on a nes

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/ Bent on 30-Aug-2005 06:04 wrote:

Well by that logic games from any system could be "hacked" enough to make them run on any other system. The point still stands that these extracted dumps were 100% intact on the media and often the only change from the original game is a change of copyright date. These are legitimate software that work on emulators and were produced by official developers, often nintendo themselves. Why shouldn't we keep them?

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/ badzou on 30-Aug-2005 15:20 wrote:
Well by that logic games from any system could be "hacked" enough to make them run on any other system. The point still stands that these extracted dumps were 100% intact on the media and often the only change from the original game is a change of copyright date. These are legitimate software that work on emulators and were produced by official developers, often nintendo themselves. Why shouldn't we keep them?
100% intact???? O_________o;

ALL of the extracted roms were hacked to be playable on emus

they are FAKES dude, just DEAD FAKE

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/ Bent on 30-Aug-2005 19:12 wrote:

Have you ever actually extracted any of these roms? The NES ones from the animal crossing games are sitting inside a custom format archive on the disc, along with the emulator code and some textures used for the NES stuff. Use a special tool to extract all the files in this custom archive, and you have a folder full of NES roms, 100% playable without any tinkering. As for the N64 zeldas extracted from the bonus games, they aren't even inside an archive, they are just a file sitting right on the disc. I wouldn't call this hacking at all. I'll show you the directory structure on one of these discs if you want.

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/ manliodp on 07-Sep-2005 13:02 wrote:

Please NO Famicom Mini rips in the dat...

I have extracted all the famicom mini roms and they've altered graphics (nintendo modified the sprites to make them look better on the GBA screen) and some are even unplayable on emus (SMB for example).

So please don't include them, it would be a waste of time

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/ yoshizuki on 08-Sep-2005 22:07 wrote:
Please NO Famicom Mini rips in the dat...

I have extracted all the famicom mini roms and they've altered graphics (nintendo modified the sprites to make them look better on the GBA screen) and some are even unplayable on emus (SMB for example).

So please don't include them, it would be a waste of time
Could u explain me how to do plz.
TIA

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/ manliodp on 09-Sep-2005 02:10 wrote:

Example: Famicom Mini Super Mario Bros.

needed: vba emulator, famicom mini Super Mario Bros rom and a .nes dump Super Mario Bros (goodnes or nointro).

Run the famicom mini rom via vba. Even if the emulator hangs for the protection there's no problem (vba 1.8beta should not hang).

Dump the memory vba uses with a tool like userdump in a file

Fire up your hex editor

Open the Super Mario Bros.nes rom and the memory dump file.

Try to find in the dump file the first 8-16 bytes of the nes dumped rom (exclude the header).

When you're done, you'll have found where is the rom data in the dump file.

Now you have only to extract the rom data knowing the correct size, apply an header on the extracted rom and you're done.

I hope this is clear (i doubt, poor english :)

If you need more info you'll find me on the nointro channel on irc.

Bye!

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/ yoshizuki on 11-Sep-2005 00:01 wrote:

Thx a lot
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